11:00 Worship hour tradition

[Tom Wetmore]

I think some are misunderstanding and making some unwarranted assumptions in reaction to what is being said about ML. I did not read the OP to suggest that he was a drunkard, even that he was a habitual and heavy drinker or suffering from a raging hangover Sunday morning. I understood it to be that he often was out eating drinking and socializing late on Saturday night with friends. It was more the lateness of being out that left him incoherent for early mass. I dare say that if many of you stayed out past midnight , even if not consuming any amount of alcohol, would have a hard time getting up early the next morning and being able to deliver a coherent talk, at least not up to your best effort. And some good food late in the evening with just a few rounds of good German beer would only make it less desirable to get up early. No need to jump to the conclusion that anyone is slandering ML or accusing him of gluttony or drunkenness.

[Gary K]

I think some are misunderstanding and making some unwarranted assumptions in reaction to what is being said about ML. I did not read the OP to suggest that he was a drunkard, even that he was a habitual and heavy drinker or suffering from a raging hangover Sunday morning. I understood it to be that he often was out eating drinking and socializing late on Saturday night with friends. It was more the lateness of being out that left him incoherent for early mass. I dare say that if many of you stayed out past midnight , even if not consuming any amount of alcohol, would have a hard time getting up early the next morning and being able to deliver a coherent talk, at least not up to your best effort. And some good food late in the evening with just a few rounds of good German beer would only make it less desirable to get up early. No need to jump to the conclusion that anyone is slandering ML or accusing him of gluttony or drunkenness.

Do a little Googling. You'll find out that Luther is accused of being a drunk, as well as of being a violent anti-semite. Both charges are pure bunk, but that doesn't stop them from being repeated adnauseum.

Here's the source of the latest round of charges. That no documentation is supplied is ignored. http://www.pbs.org/empires/martinluther/cheats.html

[Flyboy]

...you'll find out that Luther is accused of being a drunk, as well as of being a violent anti-semite. Both charges are pure bunk, but that doesn't stop them from being repeated adnauseum.

Perhaps that is because Luther himself wrote things against the Jews. The treatise you quote Gary, is his first treatise on the Jews and his anti-semitic views had either not yet developed OR he was simply hiding them. The four that followed, including, by the way, one titled Against the Sabbatarians, were venomous.

Consider his third treatise, in which he opens with a statement about being unable to resist writing more about them due to their accursed actions.

"I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that those miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews and who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen."

The first para from a booklet he wrote called "The Jews and Their Lies". Then, after ten chapters of diatribe against the Jews, ML asks...

"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know."

That is just the first point, of seven, that ML suggests. Clearly this man did not like Jews. Hitler himself found inspiration from Luther's writings. There are few scholars today that would argue that, on balance, ML was anything other than an anti-semite, by a modern definition.

Taken from http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

ML must be looked at in context. Was he an anti-semite? You can make up your own mind, but don't quote him out of context.

[Flyboy]

Gail, I'd be interested in seeing the sources your pastor used for that claim. You mentioned you'd ask him, can you post here after you find out?

Would be somewhat amusing if it were true, but I have my doubts.

[Gail]

I can send him an e-mail. Since I don't go to that church every Sabbath I don't know when I'll run into him next.

It would be interesting to find out what he says, I agree.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'd sure like to see those Martin Luther quotes in the original German...

[Flyboy]

I'd sure like to see those Martin Luther quotes in the original German...

True. Translations rarely carry the same subtle language that the originals do, unfortunately.