Sin - are there levels?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Are there levels of sin? Does a sin in one person's life mean that that particular issue is sinful for everyone?

Do we tend to justify our "sins"? Can one depend on one's conscience to guide in the realm of sinful actions/thoughts/emotions?

Meat: sinful? all? some? once in awhile?

Jewelry: sinful? all? some? once in awhile?

How about saying "Damn"? sinful? all the time?

Caffeine: sinful? all? some? once in awhile?

Sabbath activities: e.g., downhill skiing vs cross-country, wading vs swimming, going out to eat vs cooking something at home, reading secular books vs religious books/computer/TV, knitting, crocheting, quilting?

How about speeding on the highway? Sinful? all the time? sometimes?

Movies: sinful? all? some?

Music: some sinful?

The conscience is a funny thing. It can be trained.

[Gail]

Yes, I agree- this is a very good question!

Jesus talked about the weightier matters... whatever He impresses upon you is between you and Him. From what it says in Matthew 23:23, it's not meat eating and jewelry.

It's easier to focus on the more humanly "in-one's-own-strength" attainable subjects until we start tithing our mints and cummins to the exclusion of justice, mercy and faith. Not only does it not become Christian believers, but I believe it belittles Christ and His power and vision for what He will do in us.

I'm sorry for some of the stories of maltreatment I hear of sincere, baby believers. I've done my share... The pastor of the church I was at last Sabbath rebuked his members, saying on the topic of revival and reformation that they don't permit members to go around "fixing" what is not like them or even focusing on the perceived faults of others.

[Gail]

Yup, I reckon we justify ourselves. That is human nature.

[Gary K]

I'm sorry for some of the stories of maltreatment I hear of sincere, baby believers. I've done my share... The pastor of the church I was at last Sabbath rebuked his members, saying on the topic of revival and reformation that they don't permit members to go around "fixing" what is not like them or even focusing on the perceived faults of others.

I'm sorry for the maltreatment too, but that doesn't mean the idea of one person making another person aware of a spiritual shortcoming is unBiblical.

Galations 6: 1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

The problem isn't one of doing something we shouldn't do for each other, but the attitude taken in doing so. Two different people can say the same thing to me, and one will get me to put my back up and fight, and the other will cause me to listen and consider his words carefully. The only difference? The attitude of the reprover. One is there to control, the other is there to help, and the motives are expressed in the attitude.

[Gail]

Ideally! :)

[Parade Orange]

levels of sin!

hmmmmmm

yes!

the intents of my heart help me navigate such grey areas

its not a sin for me to buy something for my home cause i dont have alot of nice things and not fussy about things

but i have a dear friend that struggles with things for the home cause he always looks and fantasizes and embellishes his home with nice thiongs and knows it can be a god so its a struggle

i have friends that eat a plate full of food then get up and its ok

others struggle and cant get enough=its a god to them

they struggle with overeating

is it a sin for me to wear jewlry! no cause i dont wear jewelry and have no desire to wear it so if someone gives me a necklace i can wear it as a sign of friendship and honoured with such a gift by a dear friend i would show it off as such but i dont wear it to look better than others with a 'look at me' mindset

bobbles and bangles are too girly for me and cant stand the 80's one ear ring look cause they look lopsided

so never got into body adornment of tatoos or ear rings!

i never married so dont have to deal with the skewed theology of NO RINGS FOR MARRIAGE baptismal vows prattle

everything that u hold up higher than your relationship/service to GOD can be a sin

i pray to GOD that my grip on this earth will be with open palms and my open palms with GOD is hanging on tightly

this is very hard to do

[Gary K]

Are there levels of sin? Does a sin in one person's life mean that that particular issue is sinful for everyone?

Do we tend to justify our "sins"? Can one depend on one's conscience to guide in the realm of sinful actions/thoughts/emotions?

Meat: sinful? all? some? once in awhile?

Jewelry: sinful? all? some? once in awhile?

How about saying "Damn"? sinful? all the time?

Caffeine: sinful? all? some? once in awhile?

Sabbath activities: e.g., downhill skiing vs cross-country, wading vs swimming, going out to eat vs cooking something at home, reading secular books vs religious books/computer/TV, knitting, crocheting, quilting?

How about speeding on the highway? Sinful? all the time? sometimes?

Movies: sinful? all? some?

Music: some sinful?

The conscience is a funny thing. It can be trained.

I think, from what the Bible says about sin, that there are clearly sins that God sees as more destructive than others, even though all sin/s is/are destructive. We rarely have the same viewpoint of sin as God does though because all we know is sin. We've never experienced an environment free from sin so how easy is it for us to have a paradigm that sees sin from a sinless paradigm? Sin is what we know and we judge everything we see and hear from within that paradigm.

Over the years I've come to see activities as in being in two camps. The activity either leads me to a closer consideration of God and focuses my mind on Him, or causes me focus on something else and removes God from my immediate consciousness.

Take a basketball game on Sabbath as an example. Does playing basketball focus me on my relationship with God? Does it make me more conscious of His presence? For me, absolutely not. Does it remove me from His presence? For me, yes.

I could be sitting in a bar and be focusing on my relationship with God, if I was there witnessing to someone about God, what He has done for me and what He can do for that person. And, I could be sitting in church and not be doing anything that is focusing on my relationship with God if I'm daydreaming about the basketball game I watched, or played in, the day before.

Whether any of these activities are sinful or not depends on how the Holy Spirit has led me to see them in the context of when, where, and why I am participating in them.

Can we have an educated conscience? Yes. If we both desire one and allow God to educate it by listening to His leading.

God leads us all by different paths toward the same endpoint, so in terms of whether what is right for me is right for someone else, other than in the context of what God has specifically revealed to all of us, not everything that is wrong for me is wrong for someone else and vice versa.

[Parade Orange]

GARY K!

thanku for that post!

i grew up with people saying anything done on the sabbath that was fun was evil

so im thinking its only ok if its not fun!

riding bike was fun so thats wrong

swimming is fun so thats wrong

long sermons not fun so its good and holy

[Gail]

GARY K!

thanku for that post!

i grew up with people saying anything done on the sabbath that was fun was evil

so im thinking its only ok if its not fun!

riding bike was fun so thats wrong

swimming is fun so thats wrong

long sermons not fun so its good and holy

Checklist time again?

[Gary K]

GARY K!

thanku for that post!

i grew up with people saying anything done on the sabbath that was fun was evil

so im thinking its only ok if its not fun!

riding bike was fun so thats wrong

swimming is fun so thats wrong

long sermons not fun so its good and holy

You're welcome. I'm glad I was able to help in some way.

I was raised in a similar fashion.

Is riding a bike wrong on Sabbath? Well, for me the questions are:

1. Am I riding competitively? Am I racing someone else. How is that conducive to me recognizing God's presence? Am I out riding with my buddies just to have a good time?

2. Am I riding out in nature with the conscious purpose of seeing God's handiwork and thinking about Him?

As with everything else in life motive and context are essential. And, as we grow closer to God our perceptions of all these things will change to become more like the way God views things.

The same goes for swimming. Am I swimming for recreation only, or because I want to prove I'm a better swimmer than the next guy, or am I out snorkling to learn more about God's handiwork, to see more of Him? Is it very hot and I find myself uncomfortable in heat and sticky with sweat is it wrong to take a quick dip to lower body temperature and wash the sweat off?

This is how I judge right and wrong for myself. I don't apply my judgments on actions to anyone else. We all have to make our choices and God doesn't make the pathway to heaven out of a cookie cutter.

I can't find another reasonable perspective from which to view these questions. Can anyone else? I'd be interested in hearing about it.

[Parade Orange]

GARY K quote

[ClubV12]

"Checklist time again?"

The first time I saw a referrence like that I wasn't sure what was going on. Now it makes me chuckle,,, as I get new ideas, like from this thread, to add to my "list".

Man if this keeps up I won't even be able to get out bed for fear of violating something. Ha Ha Ha

[Bravus]

To me, there are two different issues that we tend to get confused about.

(And I apologise - I've definitely said this here before)

1. There's no such thing as a 'little sin' in one sense, because any sin at all requires the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus to atone for it. Stealing an apple at a fruit stall and murdering a child are the same on this scale.

2. In terms of the effects on others (and on ourselves) in this world right now, of course, the child-killing is a much worse and more important sin than the fruit-stealing.

Of course, there are also the kinds of 'Adventist' sins mentioned in the opening post like meat-eating and coffee-drinking... I'm not convinced they are sins at all, but if they are they're small sins in terms of Part 2 above and the same size as all other sins in terms of Part 1.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

there are also the kinds of 'Adventist' sins

[Parade Orange]

the music thing!

ugh

so many different thoughts on that im my head about it alone!

and so many different perspectives and experiences from the crowd here

should we open that can of worms?

let me just say music means alot to me

it has made me laugh

it has made me cry

it has given me profound thoughts and silly choruses

it has drawn me closer to JESUS

it has made me far far away from HIM

beatles and elvis presley music takes me back to my father when he was happy clapping his hands singing along

[ he was usually violently abusive and angry ]

and KINGS HERALD drives me to my knees

music touches me in areas that no other thing can do

[Parade Orange]

when i was in high school at an ADVENTEST ACADEMY the big rock group of the day was KISS

and of course rumoured abounded that the name didnt mean a simple peck on the cheek but KISS stood for something sinister

Knights

In

Servicing

Satan

and on halloween a student dressed up like PAUL STANLEY [ WHO WAS THE LEAD SINGER WITH A LOUD SCREeTCHING VOICE ] of the group with white face and a BLACK STAR over one eye

the falculty acted like he just stabbed a nun in the heart with a microphone stand

he was a nice kid though-he treated me kindly

my brother not long before that day got LOVE GUN album by KISS and I thought he was inviting the devil into our close and play record player

not too long after that a youth minister's daughter went out and got a lite bubble gum album by AIR SUPPLY

it was deemed ok cause it wasnt too heavy with the drums and the mens voices were soothing and a tad effiminate sounding

[Parade Orange]

growing up inside/outside the SDA church i saw things that were permissable in the world of TV

THE ACADEMY played THE APPLE DUMPLING GANG for the kids on a saturday night

BENJI was played for church sat night functions

it was all about harmless fun disney (nothing says FUN/HAPPY/MIRTHY/GAY/WHOLESOME like DISNEY) movies!

so if tv for the masses for church consumption together lightheated silly goofy was the ticket is the consensus

the parents didnt call to complain about those movies being shown to their precious children

we had the BRADY BUNCH , FAMILY AFFAIR and WALTONS and LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRE, HAPPY DAYS,MORK AND MINDY and uhhh ... APPLE'S WAY and ummm CBS EVENING NEWS with WALTER CRONKITE

nothing but good wholesome tv

of course BEWITCHED ,I DREAM OF JEANNIE, ALL IN THE FAMILY,THREES COMPANY,SOAP and MAUDE had to be avoided at all costs!

the thing is that THE BEAVER SHOW and DADDY KNOWS BEST and OZZIE NELSON FAMILY thing

showed u can be good and moral and have all the answers without JESUS!

the waltons and little house showed it marginally but for the most part it was about living without JESUS

i didnt see alot of family worship and opening the BIBLE

[lil house had alot of it compared to any show i can think of at the time]

its not enough to be good and moral... we need JESUS!

and good programs didnt highlight that

so its held up as THEEE THING TO WATCH IF U MUST WATCH TV

[Woody]

Quote:

there are also the kinds of 'Adventist' sins

I agree with CoA.

At least I am trying to read his mind.

Here is what I believe-

There are Sins with a capital 'S'.

And there are sins with a small 's'.

Sin with a capital 'S' are those that stop a relationship with Jesus.

Sin with a small 's' are all the things that we do wrong in our life on earth such as the ones you listed. Or as you state 'Adventist' sins. We as SDAs focus to much on these kinds of sins. Yes, they can possibly cause an effect on the big 'S' sin. But, we need to focus on feeding our relationship with Jesus. As we do that like EGW says ... the "little 's' sins" will work themselves out. But for sure we can over focus on them instead of Jesus.

I hope others will correct me if I have any of this wrong.

[CoAspen]

Let's get this straight once and for all.... ...all others are worse than mine!!!

[Gail]

Let's get this straight once and for all.... ...all others are worse than mine!!!

Of course! LOL

[Gail]

Quote:

Sin with a capital 'S' are those that stop a relationship with Jesus.

Sin with a small 's' are all the things that we do wrong in our life on earth such as the ones you listed. Or as you state 'Adventist' sins. We as SDAs focus to much on these kinds of sins. Yes, they can possibly cause an effect on the big 'S' sin. But, we need to focus on feeding our relationship with Jesus. As we do that like EGW says ... the "little 's' sins" will work themselves out. But for sure we can over focus on them instead of Jesus

Doesn't the Bible talk about sins that are not unto death? (1 John 5)

But- you raise a good point about focusing on sin, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, when we do that, we are not looking at Jesus. Secondly the Bible says that by beholding we become changed. What does focusing on others (especially their downfalls) do for us?