4 the Bible Alone folks....

[ClubV12]

Man I hear that a LOT!!! Well, I only go by the bible and the bible alone. We don't need Ellen White (or Luther, or Moses or David or Paul, uh, who else don't we "need"?).

Try a little respect for history and HOW the Holy Spirit works.

For you "bible only" folks, WHO taught YOU about the Sabbath? About the state of the dead? About the 28 fundamental beliefs?

The bible? NOT TRUE! Those doctrines were well established before you were even born. You confirmend them with the bible, you didn't LEARN them there. You learned it through Gods appointed agency on earth, the Seventh-day Adventist church.

WHERE did the church learn them? Through God's appointed messenger on earth, Ellen White, verified by the bible.

So, the next time you want to use the oft used line, "The bible and bible alone", say it with a little respect, because your building on the shoulders of giants who came before you, God's appointed messengers through out time. One of which, was Ellen White.

OK, rant over... :)

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Man do you have a lot to learn.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Man I hear that a LOT!!! Well, I only go by the bible and the bible alone. We don't need Ellen White (or Luther, or Moses or David or Paul, uh, who else don't we "need"?).

Try a little respect for history and HOW the Holy Spirit works.

For you "bible only" folks, WHO taught YOU about the Sabbath? About the state of the dead? About the 28 fundamental beliefs?

The bible? NOT TRUE! Those doctrines were well established before you were even born. You confirmend them with the bible, you didn't LEARN them there. You learned it through Gods appointed agency on earth, the Seventh-day Adventist church.

WHERE did the church learn them? Through God's appointed messenger on earth, Ellen White, verified by the bible.

So, the next time you want to use the oft used line, "The bible and bible alone", say it with a little respect, because your building on the shoulders of giants who came before you, God's appointed messengers through out time. One of which, was Ellen White.

OK, rant over...

Something there makes me twitch a bit...not sure what, though. Until I was 21, my father was not an Adventist - but a finer Christian would have been hard to find. He read the Bible, not Ellen White. So, too, did many of my relatives not go to church, but read the Bible and were Christian people. They walked their talk.

I think many Adventists put too much focus on EGW. It puts off non-SDA's (and SDA's too).

If the Adventist church is not sola scriptura, I don't belong to it.

[miz3]

I am with rudywoofs on this one!

[ClubV12]

"...my father was not an Adventist."

Thats because he never heard of Ellen White, or being a good God fearing man, he would have been.

[phkrause]

"...my father was not an Adventist."

Thats because he never heard of Ellen White, or being a good God fearing man, he would have been.

I disagree with you on that Club. There are many good God fearing Christian's who are not SDA, and according to EGW, they will be in Heaven! Not until the Sabbath becomes a real issue at the end of time will we have to choose between man's day of worship and God's day of worship.

[ClubV12]

"God fearing Christian's who are not SDA."

I never said there weren't pk, I said if they studied and accepted Ellen White for what she is, a prophet, they WOULD BE SDA. But they aren't for one simple reason, they don't have a prophet. Thats why there good God fearing Baptists or Catholics or Mormons or whatever.

Denial of the power of the Lords messenger is why we have so many SDA's, "falsely so called", who think all they need is the bible and the bible alone.

What makes an SDA and SDA? A modern day prophet, thats what. Throw out Ellen White and your a Baptists, or a Mormon.

BECAUSE the bible and the bible alone was not enough for the human race to understand the core values of the SDA belief. So God raised up a prophet for our time, like He did so many times in the history of the bible. When the people needed it to understand. And like in the bible, many of those same people who claimed to believe, made the prophets words of no effect. They denied the power thereof, and the cry went up through the land. We don't need this prophet, we have the bible and the bible alone! Same, same, today...

[Light Fox]

I seem to recall somewhere that Ellen White said that if the people had been diligent in Bible study, they wouldn't have required her ministry. Am I remembering that correctly?

While I agree that inspiration is an important aspect of the last day Church (and I don't for the record, believe the Bible indicates that was to cease with Mrs. White), I would hesitate to say that Ellen White is what makes an SDA an SDA. Imagine trying to evangelize and explain our beliefs with her as the only source. Considering she said not to use her in the pulpit, that seems like an even worse approach.

[ClubV12]

Imagine trying to evangelize by boldy proclaiming her as what she is, a prophet! And then using the bible and the bible alone to show that is true! That what she offers is important information relevant to our time! Imagine boldly proclaiming her book, "Great Controversy", wasn't written for the Seventh-day Adventist church, it was written for the WORLD, it was written for THEM!

Now imagine such an evangelized person joining the church (that would be ME) and finding that many of the members openly disparage, denigrate, ignore and make of no effect the Lords tstimony throught his prophet, Ellen White?

Imagine many Seventh-day Adventists boldy claiming, "We don't worship the prophet." Nobody even suggested you do, why would you say that? "We don't need the prophet." Then why is that a part of your fundamental beliefs? "She didn't have all the light." Moses didn't have all the light, niether did Paul, just WHAT is that supposed to mean when you say that? You know what it SOUNDS LIKE? That you distrust her, that your looking for something more than she has to offer, that you don't have faith in her. If YOU don't have faith in her, then ME, as a new believer, WHY should I have faith in her???

I say, I think Ellen White is of God. The report comes back, "Man, you got a lot to learn." Oh really? Maybe you "old time Adventists" have a lot to UNLEARN!!!

People ask, and rightly so, is MIZ3 an Adventist? People aren's sure, I'm NOT sure! I pray that my witness never becomes so confused people don't clearly know where I stand!

I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. I believe in the 28 fundamental beliefs, without qualification. Without "but..." Without putting down the Lords prophet. I will boldy proclaim the truth in it' purity. Ellen White was God's prophet for our time, period, no if's, no and's, no but's, no excuses, no hiding behind catch phrases like "the bible and the bible only". Which is code for "I don't really believe in Ellen White." Which means, your not "really" a Seventh-day Adventist, your an imposter, a fake, a wannabe.

[Light Fox]

Well, if I might share... I am a Creation Seventh Day Adventist. Perhaps you've noticed(?) the kind of reaction we get when one of us mentions even casually (or when directly questioned) that some of our members serve as messengers to the Church and receive visions and dreams.

We don't make it a matter of emphasis, and we generally don't trumpet the word "prophet" regarding those members. That doesn't really seem to matter much, though, does it? My point is, starting up with "we have a prophet" puts the good news of your evangelism in that prophet. That tends to alienate people even more than simply having one (and look how that alienates them already).

That said, I do understand where you are coming from. The tide of anti-Ellen White sentiment in the SDA Church and without is truly a discouraging thing to fight against, particularly for a new member. Frankly, I was shocked when I first picked up an Ellen White book and saw what she taught as compared to what the Adventist church I was a member of was teaching and doing.

So I hope you don't take me as trying to start a fight, or disagree with attempting to vindicate Mrs. White's gift and relevance. I do think there needs to be some wisdom in approaching non-SDAs with the most relevant issues first, however; and I don't think Mrs. White herself ever considered her gift to be in that category.

[ClubV12]

The message and the methods of witnessing change with the person and the circumstances.

[Woody]

Quote:

catch phrases like "the bible and the bible only". Which is code for "I don't really believe in Ellen White." Which means, your not "really" a Seventh-day Adventist, your an imposter, a fake, a wannabe.

I have a different concept of who the real SDAs are. Those who don't believe in the 'bible and the bible only' are rejecting our prophet and are not real SDAs.

Quote:

"the Bible, and the Bible only, was to be our guide; and we are never to depart from this position." -Letter 105, 1903

[phkrause]

I seem to recall somewhere that Ellen White said that if the people had been diligent in Bible study, they wouldn't have required her ministry. Am I remembering that correctly?

While I agree that inspiration is an important aspect of the last day Church (and I don't for the record, believe the Bible indicates that was to cease with Mrs. White), I would hesitate to say that Ellen White is what makes an SDA an SDA. Imagine trying to evangelize and explain our beliefs with her as the only source. Considering she said not to use her in the pulpit, that seems like an even worse approach.

That's very true Qinael, and this is one reason she was called, because the church needed guidance to get started. And I believe from what I see today, we still need guidance.

[ClubV12]

Piece of cake doing the bible and the bible only thing today. Since it's been handed to you on a silver plater, verified and approved by the brethren and Ellen White well before any of us were born!

...would it hurt to say, to whisper a prayer, "Thank you Lord, for sending us a messenger that our eyes might be opened to the truth." And the messages, from that messenger live on today. We need them now, more than ever, I thank God He has provided us with such detailed information on how to live our life.

[phkrause]

Piece of cake doing the bible and the bible only thing today. Since it's been handed to you on a silver plater, verified and approved by the brethren and Ellen White well before any of us were born!

...would it hurt to say, to whisper a prayer, "Thank you Lord, for sending us a messenger that our eyes might be opened to the truth." And the messages, from that messenger live on today. We need them now, more than ever, I thank God He has provided us with such detailed information on how to live our life.

I've actually heard this Club, while they ignore the previous one.

[Light Fox]

...And I believe from what I see today, we still need guidance.

So, do you think God would continue to send prophets or messengers in that case?

[phkrause]

So, do you think God would continue to send prophets or messengers in that case?

I'm not sure about another Prophet per se, but I believe in Revelation it says something about people prophecing? Not positive!

[Light Fox]

Hm... I'm not sure of any in Revelation. Do you think you might be thinking of this one?

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" (Joel 2:29)

The closest I can think of in Revelation offhand would be "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev. 19:10)

I suspect Gerry's other thread is a good treatise of how another prophet would be received.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

...And I believe from what I see today, we still need guidance.

So, do you think God would continue to send prophets or messengers in that case?

Perhaps. Just perhaps - He thinks that the scriptures contain enough - just enough of what we need that we might get by.

Let's cross our fingers that He does. We sure don't need to mess of another prophet.

[Light Fox]

Perhaps. Just perhaps - He thinks that the scriptures contain enough - just enough of what we need that we might get by.

Let's cross our fingers that He does. We sure don't need to mess of another prophet.

I'm not sure I understand this sentiment. Do you consider Mrs. White to have been "a mess?"

[ClubV12]

While I think it's possible we will and may well need some or someone to speak to us again in the last days, it might not be what we want to hear.

Not everyone is exactly thrilled with Sister Whites counsel as it is, and that is a LOT of counsel. Will we need MORE? More "new light"? New light is most often old light we failed to understand. Perhaps any new prophets work will be to point us back to, not only the bible, but to Sister Whites counsel. Counsel that we failed to grasp the first time around.

I imagine the new believers in the early church, sitting around talking about Paul.

"What a great orator he is", says one. "Well yes he is", says another, "BUT, he's only a lesser light leading back to the greater light. We are torah and torah only people after all. This man Paul, he offers some good tips, but, take his views on marriage for instance, it's just his opinion you know."

I'm sure there were folks that had THAT conversation! Probably life long raised in the faith solid "church folk" of their time. :)

[Light Fox]

I can't imagine God would send a messenger to tell people what they want to hear. We had a lot to read in the Scripture, and we were sent Mrs. White to point us along. She pointed back, and showed some new as well.

Now, we have a lot to read in the Scripture and Ellen White's writings. I, for one, cannot say I am impressed with the work Adventists (or anyone else) have put into those two subjects. If anything, knowledge of the oracles of God has declined since the time Mrs. White was sent, and that, drastically.

Now here's a thought. Say someone comes up and says they have inspiration from God; in short, they say they are a prophet. Assuming their purpose is indeed to point out failure to understand old light, that would mean they would be teaching a view of either the Scripture or Ellen White (or both) that probably isn't the normal way of looking at it, correct? It'd probably be pretty extreme, actually; if Mrs. White was sent to help start the church, it may need be a message of similar magnitude.

That being the case, how would you handle someone approaching you saying they are sent from God with a truth, but what they say isn't what you think the Bible and Ellen White mean? It's almost a foregone conclusion that it will not be what you think they mean, so what would stop you from applying Isaiah 8:20 to auto-reject any new prophetic claims?

[ClubV12]

"I can't imagine God would send a messenger to tell people what they want to hear."

You can take THAT statement to the bank! No prophet is going to come to "tickle our ears", thats for sure! :)