Here we go again - the man of Romans 7 - is he condemned?

[Sonny]

As with anything, we need to look at the whole context. To look into my question - is the man of Romans 7 condemned? - we must start back in Romans 7:7-13

Verse 7 What shall we say then ? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law ; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

You see in verse 6 Paul tells believers that they had to delivered from under law. That's why Paul asks the question, "is the law sin?"...it the law a bad thing?

His answer is, "no"! Why? Because if it wasn't for the law Paul wouldn't have understood what the law means when it states "you shall not covet"

verse 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind ; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Now this verse requires a bit of thinking outside the box. What it Paul trying to tell us? Namely that sin (i.e., the sin nature) had deceived Saul (Paul before his conversion) that he was keeping the 10th command. To Saul not to covet is defined by the letter of the law. Let's look at it:

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor." [Ex 20:17]

Now look what Paul states concerning his understanding of the above before his conversion:

verse 9 I was once alive apart from the Law ; but when the commandment came (i.e., the 10th commandment), sin became alive and I died ; 10 and this commandment (the 10th), which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

You must remember that to Saul life came by obedience to the law. He lived under the Old Covenant of "obey & live", "disobey & die". Anyway, the point is, Saul thought that he was obeying the 10th commandment apart from a greater understanding of what it means not to covet. So Saul's nature had deceived him that he was keeping the 10th commandment, but when he found out differently he realized he was a sinner and that the very law that was to result in life, now condemned him. That's what verses 9 & 10 are saying.

12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

There's nothing wrong with law's assessment. Saul now realized he was a sinner for the very commandment (the 10th) that he thought he was keeping, he was actually breaking.

Here's EGW:

Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

verse 13 Therefore did that which is good [the law] become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

That last sentence if very important. The law points out sin, not just the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. Christ came to expand on the law. You can see this especially in Matt chapter 5.

So what is coveting, spiritually speaking? We know what it means as far as the letter of the law, but again what does it mean according to the spirit of the law?

Coveting, is essentially self-seeking. It is the opposite of agape, which seeketh not it's own.

So when Paul says, "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the sin I do not want to do--this I keep on doing", he had the spirit of the law in mind!

The Apostle Paul realized that not only does the law require you to keep its letter, but also its spiritual demands. In fact the law requires your motive to be right; your thoughts must be pure. Remember that Christ didn't even sin by a thought. His divine nature recoiled from the love of self.

So that's the context. Keep in mind that as a Pharisee, Paul kept the letter of the law. However, he was ignorant of what the law really required.

It's within this context that we must explore if the man of Romans 7 is lost and condemned, or saved and in need of growth through the Spirit.

[Sonny]

[size:14pt]So when Paul says, "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the sin I do not want to do--this I keep on doing", he had the spirit of the law in mind!

When it comes to the spirit of God's law can any of us say we are living up to it's demands? No? What's the problem then?

We know agape, God's love, seeks not its own. Or as Ellen White put it, "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

Note it doesn't say you will first establish your own wealth and then help others out. That's a mixture, which pollutes the act because it is not without self in mind. But that's where most of us are at. We do good things, but we aren't completely unselfish - we have self-interests. Making money...getting advanced education to make even more...being entertained, etc, etc.

Why not? Why aren't we living the life of Romans 8?

Then we must say with Paul,

22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my member

Is the man of Roman's 7 condemned? If so, we stand condemned because we are having the same experience because we aren't living up the the spirit of the law - i.e., "you shall not covet"

[BobRyan]

As with anything, we need to look at the whole context. To look into my question - is the man of Romans 7 condemned? - we must start back in Romans 7:7-13

The man of Romans 7 is Paul - after his conversion, after being born-again and having the new nature in place with the law of God written on the heart.

At that point Paul says that he is "obeying the Law of God with my mind".

But he also sees "war" going on as he continues to sin "I see SIN IN me at WAR with the Law of my mind".

Paul argues that this is a wretched state - that is created by the lost person becoming saved, acquiring the new nature, the new creation, the law written on the heart, and then suddenly confonted with the old man of sin (the sinful nature) at war with his new nature.

Romans Chapter 6 already stated that if you claim to be a slave to sinning even after being born again - you are going to hell.

Romans chapter 8 provides the solution to the Romans 7 problem by saying that for the saved the door of victory is provided in that they are enabled "by the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh".

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

Okay, well, that's refreshing. I understand then that the man of Romans 7 is saved because after all the evidence of that is that he has God's law...God's love...written into his heart even though in his experience he isn't doing well.

Maybe he's a babe in Christ or he's having a besetting problem or, like what I said, he's failing to live the spirit of the law.

Very good...at least you see that the man of Romans 7 isn't condemned.