Why come to ClubAdventist to diss Adventism?

[karl]

Why come to ClubAdventist to diss Adventism?

It's like going to a Weight Watchers meeting and announcing that you think losing weight is stupid, useless, and undesirable.

What is the point of doing it other than to deliberately irritate?

Aren't there plenty of Adventist dissing sites on the Internet?

[Bravus]

I don't think anyone does? Some people take issue with particular doctrines and cultural practices, as a focus of interesting discussions, but I am not seeing any plethora of posts attacking Adventism per se.

[ClubV12]

A question that has left me baffled since I first signed on Karl. It is not readily apparent that many of those doing the bashing ARE (or at least claim to be) Seventh-day Adventists! That is the most disturbing part for me.

It has to be related to fanaticism at some level, giving lip service to spiritual things but denying the power there of?

Bravus, the Seventh-day Adventist prophet, Ellen White is assailed continually around here! That is a direct attack on the foundation of the church.

[karl]

I don't think anyone does? Some people take issue with particular doctrines and cultural practices, as a focus of interesting discussions, but I am not seeing any plethora of posts attacking Adventism per se.

Any line in any post which starts with "Adventists" or "You Adventists" is usually a bash. You haven't seen any? Are you enjoying the attacks on our fundamentals like creation and atonement?

It's a free country. People can say what they want.

But what is the point of coming to ClubAdventist and pressuring the club members to abandon Adventist teachings?

[Igakusei]

Any line in any post which starts with "Adventists" or "You Adventists" is usually a bash. You haven't seen any?

Nope.

[karl]

From another current thread:

Quote:

So Jesus Christ was evasive and not totally honest with us?

Thus, we need lesser intellects which are clouded with sin to tell us what Jesus Christ actually meant?

Now that is twisted!

[Tom Wetmore]

Why be so insecure that you cannot tolerate differences of opinion, honest questions or criticism?

Must everyone agree with you for you to be comfortable in this place?

If it makes you uncomfortable, unhappy or disturbed, maybe it is you who should consider why you come here?

[karl]

Yes, thank you for that. I can trust you to be this way pretty consistently, can't I, Tom?

[doug yowell]

Why be so insecure that you cannot tolerate differences of opinion, honest questions or criticism?

Must everyone agree with you for you to be comfortable in this place?

If it makes you uncomfortable, unhappy or disturbed, maybe it is you who should consider why you come here?

I think you just validated Karl's point.

[karl]

Yes. When even the moderators appear to appreciate the anti-Adventist position over the pro-Adventist position it appears that Tom is correct. I should seriously question participation here. The name, ClubAdventist attracted me, but now I can see the double meaning. I didn't realize the "Club" was actually an offensive weapon.

Good luck, y'all. You're gonna need it.

[CoAspen]

I think it depends on if we are of the mind that we know it all and don't challenge us or if we have sufficient faith to share with others and learn from them. It is not an either or situation. There are sites out there where people can sit around and sing 'cumby ya' and everyone gets slaped on the back as to how great they are and say "thankfully we don't have to associate with 'those' outsiders."

[Bravus]

In relation to Ellen White, I think the great majority of those who post here actually deeply appreciate her work and ministry. What they object to is not her but her canonisation: particular ways of engaging with her work.

I think this is the case of much of the other 'bashing' as well: if read with some care and thought, it is not an attack on Seventh-day Adventism as such. I don't think there are many (any?) people who post here regularly who think the world would be a better place without SDAism in it and are seeking to destroy SDAism.

Rather, they appreciate and honor SDAism, but have issues with some particular doctrinal features or cultural practices. If they didn't think SDAism has the potential to be a good thing, they wouldn't bother putting in the energy to critique it.

One of those particular cultural features is "Any version of SDAism other than mine is not SDAism at all". For people who believe that way then yes, any suggestion that SDAism should change will be seen as an 'attack'.

But it doesn't have to be that way... and seeing posts as attacks doesn't mean either that they are intended to be attacks or that, objectively speaking, they are attacks.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Must everyone agree with you for you to be comfortable in this place?

If it makes you uncomfortable, unhappy or disturbed, maybe it is you who should consider why you come here?

I think you just validated Karl's point.

I believe those who serve Jesus with integrity will soon no longer live with practices that do not glorify God. In the mean time God has given us our responsibilities.

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..."

Matthew 5:44 KJV

God blesses!

[doug yowell]

I don't think there are many (any?) people who post here regularly who think the world would be a better place without SDAism in it and are seeking to destroy SDAism.

Rather, they appreciate and honor SDAism, but have issues with some particular doctrinal features or cultural practices. If they didn't think SDAism has the potential to be a good thing, they wouldn't bother putting in the energy to critique it.

You're kidding,right, Brav.? I can't believe you wrote that.

[Bravus]

Evidence please.

[ClubV12]

"There are sites out there where people can sit around and sing 'cumby ya' and everyone gets slaped on the back as to how great they are and say "thankfully we don't have to associate with 'those' outsiders."

Where are these sites? Sometimes it gets so discouraging around here I could use some of that! :)

[Parade Orange]

amen CLUBV12

i would visit such a sight providing that they are transparent

[fccool]

I think we could be a bit more mature about this issue. Not every criticism is meant to "diss" people. I understand why it could be taking as an offense, but if you do... then we have to ask why do Adventists have to "diss" Catholics, Baptists, coffee drinkers, smokers, pork eaters, and the list goes on.

There's always a valid criticism, and there should always be a an opportunity to understand what you believe good enough to defend/explain it to people who don't have similar views on the subject. Or do you expect people to just believe because you told them that it makes sense to you?

You can always take it as opportunity to strengthen you faith, or re-examine it. Either way, forsaking criticism for the sake of a place where everyone agrees with you is somewhat counter-productive in terms of a forum.

[ClubV12]

fccool, I hear you on the "dis" comment. It becomes more complex and dangerous when a "dis", or pot shot, what ever term were using today, attacks the foundation of the church. Not a person, per se, but one of the 28 fundamental beliefs, church manual, etc.

While there is certainly room for debate on any given topic, it's a serious "dis" to attack a foundational belief. Like any "government" there are procedures and rules that need to be followed if such a challenge is to be made, or even publicly stated. This of course applies to SDA members in good standing.

One thing Ellen White strongly stresses is to be united. That principle is seen in her own life. She counseled her own husband, James, to keep quiet at a GC meeting! Even though his position WAS correct! She went to Australia, because the GC asked her to, even though she didn't have clear light on it. I won't make a call on whether or not that was the right thing to do, go to Australia. It was the right thing to follow principle, do what the GC said she should do. God allows for man to make mistakes, even the GC, but He still works through them. Israel wanted a King, He let them have one, NOT a good plan, certainly NOT God's best plan, but He works with man. Sometimes we learn best from our mistakes.

[fccool]

ClubV,

I don't think you do hear me . Any faith is a "diss" to other's belief. There's this misconstrued view that criticism of someone's faith is some sort of an "attack". It's not. Criticism of one belief is an explanation why one might have problem believing it. It may be dangerous to people whose whole foundation will crumple if they are proven wrong on one thing.

If there exist "holy cows" that are beyond any re-evaluation and criticism, and which in fact can only be done by people with some theological degrees from AU or Union... then how are you ever going to achieve at truth and falsehood? If the truth is dictated from the top down, then might as well join the organization that does it the best - Catholic Church.

As far as I'm concerned, that's what protestantism was about. It was protesting the dogmatic monopoly of the clergy over the ordinary "dumb" folk.

If the "truth" can't be adequately defended, then perhaps we should question it as truth to begin with? After all we don't believe every single claim by every single author that claimed to have supernatural experience? Why not? Why "diss" them?

If we are unwilling to consider the possibilities from opposite... then we are not really searching for truth, and our claim to truth is a cover for "I really like this, and I like to keep it, because the other stuff is difficult to live with".

[ClubV12]

"Any faith is a "diss" to other's belief."

Ok,,, boy that sounds harsh, it must be a "diss" of some kind. I don't have a problem with my Mormon neighbor, used to be one myself. I have great respect for them and owe them a lot, but I don't believe in that system anymore. Did I just "diss" them? Man, I feel bad if I did. :)

[fccool]

So, you don't consider calling Joseph Smith or Mohammad false prophets a "diss"?

I know that sounds harsh, but that's closer to reality. No-one here really attacks Adventists. We talk dogma and validity of certain things, and that really upsets certain people because they really don't like the idea of their beliefs coming under scrutiny.

[ClubV12]

Oh, that nasty word "definition" comes to mind. Yeah, I guess that WOULD be a diss! All though, having discussed that with my neighbor, I put it in a far gentler way. Getting in his face about it and calling J. Smith a fraud, uh,,, which he was you know now THAT would be a diss.

[fccool]

LOL. Telling someone that you don't believe he is a Prophet is essentially the softer way of telling them that they were a false one . The "softness" of the statement does not really play much in case of truth.

Yet, obviously you have your reasons for not believing something. It's not because you are "stiffnecked", or "bull-headed", or have "axe to grind" with Mormons. You came to a certain understanding, and you can't believe something that goes against such understanding.

I would guess that you did not came out of Mormanism overnight. It was a gradual build up, during which you perhaps discussed Mormon doctrines with your friends.

So, why is it so hard to understand when people do the same in Adventist environment? If not for such behavior, people would not be Adventists to begin with!