Do We Really Understand Disfellowship?

[cricket]

Thanks!

[shelly]

Can any one give me a commentary where disfellowship is refered to "being turned over to Satan for distruction of their flesh". That really takes the bite out of the verse and disfellowship. It simply means that you are no longer a member of that church. Unless you believe that the church is the "Church" one could always just go and worship somewhere else and it has very little spiritual significance. The verse, uninterpreted from the bible, has a huge spiritual bite. The commentary about the verse takes the bite out of it. While I hope to never be disfellowshiped, I now understand it has no spiritual significance further than not being a member of the SDA church.

[Dr. Shane]

Can any one give me a commentary where disfellowship is refered to "being turned over to Satan for distruction of their flesh".

Here are some links:

1 Corinthians 5:5

Destruction of the flesh

[Sonny]

Let's make it simple...does Christ abandon us or do we abandon Him?

Heb 13:5 For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

[olger]

Originally Posted By: shelly

He explained that disfellowship was more than losing membership in the SDA church. It is more like turning someone out of the church and allowing the devil have his way with them.

It sounds like your pastor friend is the one that didn't understand disfellowshipping. It is explained in the Church Manual and there is nothing in there about turning one over to the devil. My mother was disfellowshipped. When she was the pastor pleaded with her to continue coming to church. He even cried when they prayed. The church succeeded in loving her back in and she was rebaptized. My wife was also disfellowshipped and rebaptized when she was younger (before we met). My sister-in-law was disfellowshipped for getting pregnant out of wedlock and she was rebaptized while she was yet pregnant. That happened since I have been a member here and I shared it here.

The purpose of any church discipline is to reconcile the member with God. It is a very delicate matter and needs to be done with the right spirit. Too often it is either not done at all, or it is done poorly. We can allow the devil to have his way with a believer by not doing anything at all. I think whenever church discipline is done it should be done by a pastor along with friends of the member being disciplined. The member needs to know our concern for their spiritual well-being is our motivation. We also need to continue to follow up with the person after disfellowship and let them know they are wanted by the church.

Hi Shane. What good things if any, came out of these experiences?

[shelly]

Now I understand why the church is so quick to disfellowship individuals. I still do not agree with how often it is done or even the church's definition of disfellowship. Not all bible commentaries agree that their is no spiritual component to disfellowship. One commentary agrees that the individual is turned over to Satan but that the behavior worthy of disfellowship demonstrates that they have already turned their heart away from God so that the act has already begun in the individual. The church has been disfellowshiping individuals and has had success in pursuading some to come back. Others will find fellowship in another congregation-just not SDA. As stated before, I never want to be disfellowshiped but I no longer fear any spiritual implications. I can just go and worship elsewhere. I don't believe being put out of a man-made instituion is the same as being put away from the Body of Christ. I don't buy that being "turned out into the world" is what Paul was speaking of. I also know that if I am ever disfellowshiped from the SDA church I will not be back.

[Dr. Shane]

Hi Shane. What good things if any, came out of these experiences?

Reconciliation with Christ.

[Sonny]

Okay, let's cover all sin if the church is going to disfellowship folks. Here's something very interesting from Ellen White:

God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. Man's judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are. The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love (i.e., agape) which is the very atmosphere of the uncalled universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give. [sC p 30]

So what goes mostly unrebuked? Specifically, what is Ellen White writing about? The context reveals it:

Immediately after that last sentence ("but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give") Ellen writes:

The poor publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light (i.e., "grosser sins"); but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin. The Pharisee's boastful (prideful), self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing. (p 31)

Conclusion:

The sin that is rarely preached against within the church is the sin of pride - i.e., pride in one's law keeping - in one's self-righteous view of him or herself!

Instead the folks that get disfellowshipped is the woman or man who has a drinking problem or maybe a cheating problem. But if the church is going to disfellowship these folks then they must disfellowship those who are self-righteous.

[Sonny]

The Pharisee's boastful (prideful), self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing. (p 31)

Did you guys get that? It's not that your average self-righteous believer is doing these grosser sins like a having a drinking problem, etc. No this believer's problem is that he/she thinks that he/she is keeping the law. So the self-righteous believer compares himself/herself to others with problems like drinking, etc., instead of contrasting themselves with "the divine holiness".

Here's something from Ellen White that parallels that quote from SC p 31. I'm not sure of the reference. If you want it I'll have to pull out my EGW CD:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

Now compare these two statements:

1] "...he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness" (SC)

2] "Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves."

[Sonny]

Now compare these two statements:

1] "...he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness" (SC)

2] "Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves."

The ref to # 2 is: RH Sep 25, 1900

[ClubV12]

"But if the church is going to disfellowship these folks then they must disfellowship those who are self-righteous."

If we were to disfellowship such a person it would call for us to judge matters of the heart, the conscience, the soul. We are told not to do this, for good reason, only God can judge the heart.

Whereas "open sin", obvious to all, is not a judgment of the heart, but of action. In such a case the church has a duty to respond in an open way.

[Sonny]

If we were to disfellowship such a person it would call for us to judge matters of the heart, the conscience, the soul.

It's very simple....Just ask all the attending members during the Sabbath service who among them are keeping the commandments! All who rise their hands are then given a sermon on self-righteousness. If they reject the sermon disfellowship them!

If that question was asked at the church I use to attend I can almost guarantee you that most of the tradition SDA would raise their hands.

Why?

Because they think they are living Christ's life. They are, as EGW stated, self-deceived. The problem is that Pastors don't want to step on toes. They have sins they overlook, don't they?

Again, Ellen White:

"The drunkard is despised (open sin) and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride (inward sin), selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked."

I'll tell what's going to happen when Pastors with some backbone bring this out: It's going to cause a shaking! It's coming....

[ClubV12]

Rebuking someone is vastly different than disfellowshipping someone!

[Sonny]

Rebuking someone is vastly different than disfellowshipping someone!

The sermon given by Pastors with a backbone would be the rebuking, now wouldn't it? If they persist in their self-righteous sin that's when you disfellowship them, right?

[Sonny]

-BC- EW

-TI- Early Writings of Ellen G. White

-CN- 3

-CT- Spiritual Gifts

-PR- 02

-PG- 270

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God’s people.

Okay, let's say you are gospel, SDA preacher and you get up before you congregation and tell them:

You say, 'I am rich. I have everything I want. I don't need a thing!' And you don't realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. (Rev 3:17)

And then the Pastor takes them to Romans 7:24 where the born again believer is struggling with sin: "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of sin?"

A large majority are going to "rise up against" this. The Pastor has insulted their integrity & they will leave.....That's the shaking. It's a honest look at our law keeping IN CONTRAST with Christ's life - a life that answers "the whole law".

Those who reject this message will be shaken out. They will join Babylon and those who stroke their egos. They will join the Harlot of Revelation....

[Sonny]

And please, no one accuse me of hijacking this thread. If the church is going to disfellowship believers let's not have favorite sins. We need to cover everything....

[ClubV12]

I wouldn't call it "favorite sins" but the church manual lays out what specific sins are to be considered for disfellowship. Which is right and proper. It is reasonable, it is justice mixed with mercy.

[Sonny]

I wouldn't call it "favorite sins" but the church manual lays out what specific sins are to be considered for disfellowship....

I would:

"The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God...."

[John317]

Ellen White:

"The drunkard is despised (open sin) and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride (inward sin), selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked."

As long as you're going to quote Ellen White on the topic, why not quote what she said regarding disfellowshipping?

What is the counsel of Jesus, Paul and Ellen White?

[Sonny]

Let's not get off what I brought out so we can just ignore it....

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

Hi Shane. What good things if any, came out of these experiences?

Reconciliation with Christ.

Great to hear !

g

[olger]

I also know that if I am ever disfellowshiped from the SDA church I will not be back.

Though I don't know your reasons for making this statement it sounds like you are saying that you have no obligation to be accountable to the Body. The truth is, you and I both need accountability, and defiance is a bitter substitute for it.

rejoice always,

g

[shelly]

Originally Posted By: shelly

I also know that if I am ever disfellowshiped from the SDA church I will not be back.

Though I don't know your reasons for making this statement it sounds like you are saying that you have no obligation to be accountable to the Body. The truth is, you and I both need accountability, and defiance is a bitter substitute for it.

rejoice always,

g

I now question some of the 28 beliefs. I do not think I could stand up and say that I agree with all our church believes anymore. So if I am ever disfellowshipped, I don't think I could honestly answer yes to the baptismal vows. It has nothing to do with accountability and everything to do with me being honest to God, myself, and man.

[ClubV12]

Shelly that IS a delima! Your right about the baptismal vow, that would be a problem. Why not try to reconcile these issues soon, regardless of what may or may not happen in the future?

Many question the minor details of any one of the 28 but still believe in them. But yes, it is a serious problem if you, after study and reflection, still reject one of them in it's entirety.

I'd like to help if at all possible. Perhaps you could start a new thread on one of the 28 your not comfortable with? Or, put it right here, I think it falls in line with the subject matter.

[Dr. Shane]

Many question the minor details of any one of the 28 but still believe in them. But yes, it is a serious problem if you, after study and reflection, still reject one of them in it's entirety.

My spiritual journey led me to the Adventist church mostly because of an assumption I made. The historical evidence for the Resurrection convinced me that Christianity was the true religion. I rejected the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches because of the role tradition played in them. That left me with Sola Scriptura which lead me to Adventism.

I believe the Bible teaches that there is a universal church made up of believers throughout all denominations. I also believe it teaches there is a remnant that the Adventist church is that remnant. I disagree with some things in the Adventist church but,,, who am I? I am sinful and subject to being wrong. As I look at all the other churches, without question I must admit the Adventist church holds closer to the Bible teachings than any other. That is enough for me. When I disagree with the Adventist church, I leave room for me being wrong.