Was Ellen White a futurist?

[Windsor]

I came across the following quote in the writings of Ellen White.

"Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth." Maranatha 258

It sounds like she is stating that the 7 trumpets (as well as the 7 last plagues) are yet future, contrary to the classic historicist position.

[cheddar]

I came across the following quote in the writings of Ellen White.

"Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth." Maranatha 258

It sounds like she is stating that the 7 trumpets (as well as the 7 last plagues) are yet future, contrary to the classic historicist position.

Ellen White was given many visions about last day events but then she interpreted most of Daniel and Revelation in the past - so you figure that one out!

Feast of Trumpets -> Trumpets in Revelation

Day of Atonement -> Antitypical day of Atonement

Feast of Tabernacles -> Time of Trouble

[olger]

Not in the sense that Leanne Kaiser claims to be..

Not even close.

[Windsor]

Can't say as I've ever heard of the person.

PS: I've never been able to see your avatar without a good laugh.

[Scion]

Well, I think many prophecies have more than one fulfillment. Christ said that that generation wouldn't pass away before the "end" came. That gives a lot of people problems, but I think it is significant that Jerusalem did fall in 70AD, a generation (40 years) after Christ said that.

Didn't Ellen White say that events would "repeat" themselves near the end? If I find that quote I will add it. She definitely said that about the second angel's message in Rev 14, that it would be repeated at the very end.

I am pretty sure the plagues have not fallen yet! But... what does the Historist position say about the seven trumpets?

[Gerr]

Define what a futurist or a classic historicist is, and then perhaps we can see how she fits in.

[cheddar]

The futurist position is one that sees the bulk of Dan. and Rev. in the future (i.e. last days). The traditional historicist position is one that sees the bulk of Dan. and Rev. in the past.

Adventists and EGW are historical in their understanding with the exception of the 144,000, 7 last plagues, millennium and maybe a few other things.

Recently their have been many challenges to the historical position due to the many contradictions it presents.

For example lets look at the trumpets and in particular the 5th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is seen historically as the Ottoman empire which happened in the 1300’s. This poses a huge problem because the seal of God is mentioned as being in place during this time and we know that seal of God that is placed on the 144,000 is still future.

[Gerr]

The futurist position is one that sees the bulk of Dan. and Rev. in the future (i.e. last days). The traditional historicist position is one that sees the bulk of Dan. and Rev. in the past.

My understanding of the futurist position rest mainly on the interpretation of the last week of the 70 wks in Daniel 9 as still future while the rest are in the past. In which case, EGW is NOT a futurist. As for Revelation, it seems clear to me that we are now living in the time of the 6th seal and between the 6th & 7th trumpets.

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

The futurist position is one that sees the bulk of Dan. and Rev. in the future (i.e. last days). The traditional historicist position is one that sees the bulk of Dan. and Rev. in the past.

My understanding of the futurist position rest mainly on the interpretation of the last week of the 70 wks in Daniel 9 as still future while the rest are in the past. In which case, EGW is NOT a futurist. As for Revelation, it seems clear to me that we are now living in the time of the 6th seal and between the 6th & 7th trumpets.

If it is so clear to you that we are between trumpets then when was a third of mankind killed?

[LifeHiscost]

If it is so clear to you that we are between trumpets then when was a third of mankind killed?

Different understandings of prophecy will always be evident where fallible human beings are at the helm of interpretation. The Holy Spirit never makes an incorrect interpretation of the prophecies.

"...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation..."

2 Peter 1:19 NKJV

God blesses!

[Tom Wetmore]

The futurist position is one that sees the bulk of Dan. and Rev. in the future (i.e. last days). The traditional historicist position is one that sees the bulk of Dan. and Rev. in the past.

Adventists and EGW are historical in their understanding with the exception of the 144,000, 7 last plagues, millennium and maybe a few other things.

Recently their have been many challenges to the historical position due to the many contradictions it presents.

For example lets look at the trumpets and in particular the 5th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is seen historically as the Ottoman empire which happened in the 1300’s. This poses a huge problem because the seal of God is mentioned as being in place during this time and we know that seal of God that is placed on the 144,000 is still future.

This is why it is important not to be immovably wedded to any one approach. Each approach is a tool to understanding. If a mechanic used but one tool, he would be most ineffective.

[cheddar]

This topic always brings out such strong opinions!

It's funny how how strong opinions never seem to match the clearest verses of scripture.

So how did the seal of God end up back in the 1300's?

I've asked this question many times before and have never gotten a credible answer.

I don't think it will be any different this time.

[Tom Wetmore]

Does it make sense that God has been putting his mark on his people from the beginning and will continue to do so until the end?

Human time is linear. Divine time is not.

[Gerr]

If it is so clear to you that we are between trumpets then when was a third of mankind killed?

Ever hear of the Black Plague? And what if that number is only symbolic?

[Gerr]

Does it make sense that God has been putting his mark on his people from the beginning and will continue to do so until the end?

Human time is linear. Divine time is not.

Indeed! God has been putting His seal on His people since the beginning of time.

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Does it make sense that God has been putting his mark on his people from the beginning and will continue to do so until the end?

Human time is linear. Divine time is not.

Indeed! God has been putting His seal on His people since the beginning of time.

The seal of God happens in the last days along with all 7 trumpets. If we read Rev. 7:2-4 it says:

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The trumpets (which affect the earth, sea, trees) don’t even begin until the 144k are sealed so to say that they were fulfilled in the past in completely inaccurate!

Prophecy is like evolution, people grow up with a certain mindset and it doesn’t matter what evidence is presented they will never see anything else, it’s so sad!

[Windsor]

Prophecy is like evolution, people grow up with a certain mindset and it doesn’t matter what evidence is presented they will never see anything else, it’s so sad!

Excellent point on the trumpets. I grew up being a historicist but thankfully I was young enough to switch viewpoints. I do, however, believe the 7 seals are a history of the Earth from the beginning until the very end.

[olger]

Excellent point on the trumpets. I grew up being a historicist but thankfully I was young enough to switch viewpoints. I do, however, believe the 7 seals are a history of the Earth from the beginning until the very end.

Correct me if need be. You were a historicist, and now you are grateful to be a futurist (like Cyrus SCOFIELD?)?

g

[Gerr]

The seal of God happens in the last days along with all 7 trumpets. If we read Rev. 7:2-4 it says:

It is true that there is a special time of sealing before the close of probation, BUT:

ESV | Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

ESV | Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

NASB95 | Is 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

It seems obvious to me from the above passages that God seals everyone who hears and accepts the word of truth.

[ClubV12]

A different sealing. I think your talking about a general sealing of those who accept the word of truth, as opposed to a specific sealing for those about to go through Jacobs time of trouble at the end.

[John317]

You would probably enjoy the two-volumn set, titled, An Exhaustive Ellen G. White Commentary On Daniel and Revelation. It contains everything she wrote on those books, and also includes all of the SDA Bible Commentary on D&R.

But to answer your question, Ellen White was definitely NOT a futurist as that term is generally used in regard to prophetic interpretation.

She believed the prophecies of D&R deal with the Church age, and there's no gap between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel 9: 26, 27. Also, she didn't believe that Rev. 4: 1 is evidence of a rapture, nor that the events described in Rev. 4 to 18 are all to be fulfilled in the future.

If we compare Rev. 6: 12-17 and Matt. 24: 23-30, you will see that the sixth seal fits well into the period between the great Tribulation of the Middle Ages and the Second Coming. This period began with the Lisbon earthquake of 1755. This follows Ellen White's understanding of these prophecies.

[Gerr]

I do, however, believe the 7 seals are a history of the Earth from the beginning until the very end.

I don't think that could be correct. Listen to what Jesus Himself had to say:

ESV | Re 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

NIV84 | Re 1:19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later

ESV | Re 4:1 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

What took place before John's time was no longer sealed. It was an open book. So what was sealed and not understood by John or the 7 churches were the events then current and future events. Therefore, I don't see how the 7 trumpets or the 7 seals could start all the way to the beginning of time.

[Gerr]

If we compare Rev. 6: 12-17 and Matt. 24: 23-30, you will see that the sixth seal fits well into the period between the great Tribulation of the Middle Ages and the Second Coming. This period began with the Lisbon earthquake of 1755. This follows Ellen White's understanding of these prophecies.

John, I am excited to see somebody else making a connection between Rev 6 & Mt 24. I have been mulling over this connection for sometime. In Rev 6, I think Jesus was giving in symbolic form what He said in literal terms in Mt 24. What do you think?

[John317]

...I grew up being a historicist but thankfully I was young enough to switch viewpoints. I do, however, believe the 7 seals are a history of the Earth from the beginning until the very end.

It sounds like your views of Revelation are a mix of at least two schools of prophetic interpretation.

Who is the little-horn power of Daniel 7 & 8?

Have you bought into any of the ideas that are illustrated by the "Left Behind" series?

Do you believe what Ellen White wrote in the book, Great Controversy?

How do you understand Daniel 2, 7 and 8?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

I do, however, believe the 7 seals are a history of the Earth from the beginning until the very end.

What took place before John's time was no longer sealed. It was an open book. So what was sealed and not understood by John or the 7 churches were the events then current and future events. Therefore, I don't see how the 7 trumpets or the 7 seals could start all the way to the beginning of time.

Excellent point, Gerry. I can't see how they would cover all the history of the Earth, either. I believe the evidence is that they concern events transpiring from John's time to the Second Coming.