Is the USA a Christian nation or is it just another world power?

April 2, 2005

I guess that depends on your interpretation of Revelation 13:11

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke as a dragon."

Here's how I read this symbolic passage:

I, John, saw another world government coming up in a land ungoverned. This power only appeared to be Christ like, but in reality it was just another world system principled under its god, Lucifer.

That's my opinion,

Rob

April 2, 2005

I'm not sure what a "Christian nation" is exactly, but I do believe the beast in Rev 13:11 is the U.S. too. I think the "coming up out of the earth" part symbolizes a sparsely, unpopulated area, just as "coming out of waters" represents a nation arising from a large population (waters=population, Rev. 17:15) which is how the previous beasts/nations arose. The U.S. initially was a sparsely desolate land, and arose about the time as predicted, at the end of the 1260 year prophecy, around the late 1700's.

April 2, 2005

Australia was a distant, sparsely populated, desolate land.

The First Fleet under Captain Cook arrived to populate it with British settlers on January 26, 1788.

Do we get a place in the race to be the second beast of Revelation?

(Not entirely tongue in cheek...I was reading your post and suddenly this occurred to me.)

aldona

April 3, 2005

The timing certainly is interesting!

April 3, 2005

I'm always curious about this line of reasoning.

In Rev. 12 and 13:

1) Does the Dragon represent a nation?

2) Does the Sea Beast represent a nation?

3) Does the Land Beast represent a nation?

And what is the textual evidence for those interpretations?

My answers would be:

1) is not a nation, but is emphatically identified as "9The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,"ch. 12:9

2) is not a nation, but is a world system of empire,

because it is a composite of the beasts of Daniel 7: the pelts, the horns and the heads.

3) is not a nation, but is a world system attempting to decieve the "followers of the Lamb," by affecting Lamb-like horns. Every other time the word "lamb" occurs in Revelation, it refers to Christ.

All this focus on the U.S., for good or for ill, seems to me misplaced.

April 3, 2005

Aldona--I've read that argument before--don't know enough about history to comment (sorry, I'm ignorant!).

I was going to respond to Robert, however, saying what exactly is a Christian nation? I've had this discussion elsewhere, and I think some people define "Christian nation" differently from others. It would be good to start with a definition we can agree on.

Is it:

1) A nation with Christian leadership and Christian principles? (in which I would say Catholic or Protestant)

2) A nation in which the government is neutral in matters of religion?

3) Something else entirely?

M

April 3, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I'm always curious about this line of reasoning.

In Rev. 12 and 13:

1) Does the Dragon represent a nation?

2) Does the Sea Beast represent a nation?

3) Does the Land Beast represent a nation?

And what is the textual evidence for those interpretations?

My answers would be:

1) is not a nation, but is emphatically identified as "9The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,"ch. 12:9

2) is not a nation, but is a world system of empire,

because it is a composite of the beasts of Daniel 7: the pelts, the horns and the heads.

3) is not a nation, but is a world system attempting to decieve the "followers of the Lamb," by affecting Lamb-like horns. Every other time the word "lamb" occurs in Revelation, it refers to Christ.

All this focus on the U.S., for good or for ill, seems to me misplaced.

I also believe the 2 beasts mentioned in Rev 13 are an empire/system. Does it not appear that the U.S. is becoming an empire and the leader of it's own agenda/system?

April 3, 2005

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: The world will follow suit in its own way. Or be forced to. Refer to short answer above.

April 3, 2005

Quote:

Does it not appear that the U.S. is becoming an empire and the leader of it's own agenda/system?

The US is spreading its way of life - its called capitalism. While capitalism has some merit when compared to other world systems (i.e., Socialism, Communism) it is in direct violation of heaven's law of selflessness. Essentially the spread of capitalism is good for corporate America and gives Washington more power. After all in this world money is power.

Unlike other conquering powers the US seems non-aggressive. It seems to be gentle as a lamb, but is it or is it a camouflage? To me it is just another kingdom amongst "the kingdoms of this world." The big difference is that it claims to be Christian.

Well I got to go, the FBI is knocking at my door....

April 3, 2005

I think it is wrong to identify a specific country (the USA) with the Rev 13:11 beast. It is not surprising that this identification was made by a small outcast group of Americans, and maintained by an American-dominated denomination.

Out of the earth compared to the first coming out of the sea. It is hard to show that this refers to unpopulated v. populated physical regions.

Two-horns like a lamb. Everywhere else in Revelation the SDA identify horns as either kings or kingdoms. The USA does not have two rulers or kingdoms.

Spoke like a dragon Not like the beast.

Exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf

Made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast

So far, the USA does not meet any of these.

The SDA denomination has accepted a set of traditions invented and promulgated in the late 1800's by a group of world-event-aware individuals who were trying to explain their place in history. It has not done a good job of maintaining these individuals attitudes of study and reinterpretation - falling instead into the trap of tradition.

/Bevin

April 3, 2005

Quote:

falling instead into the trap of tradition.

The SDA church has its problems and in my estimation it stems from the rejection of the 1888 message.

Yet I agree with the interpretation that Papal Rome will be backed by the most powerful nation on earth - the USA. It will provide the power so that Roman might legislate its legalistic gospel. Those who reject this church/state marriage will be branded heretics.

This idea is by no means so far fetched. Look at all the killing that has been done in the name of God and religion. Look at Saul before He became Paul....I mean the guy was literally having people stoned (killed) for buying into any other gospel but Judaism. It can happen....

April 3, 2005

Quote:

(waters=population, Rev. 17:15)

That is a common mistake. Do waters always = population?

First of all, Rev. 17:15 is quite specific, not general, in its designation: “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages."

If waters = population, then the following should be true:

Rev:115His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing [population]

ch. 8:11 11the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the [population] turned bitter, and many people died from the [population] that had become bitter.

11:6 they have power to turn the [population] into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

14:2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing [population] and like a loud peal of thunder.

16:5Then I heard the angel in charge of the [population]say:

“You are just in these judgments,

you who are and who were, the Holy One,

19:6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing [population] and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

That's just in Revelation, and it ignores "water" in the singular. Outside of Revelation, the application of this notion is truly amazing.

If you don't mean that waters=population, please give us a consistent rule of interpretation for determining when it means population and when it means something else.

April 3, 2005

Quote:

The US is spreading its way of life - its called capitalism. While capitalism has some merit when compared to other world systems (i.e., Socialism, Communism) it is in direct violation of heaven's law of selflessness.

Capitalism is a term invented by Marx -- "Das Kapital." Might as well let the Devil define religion.

Free people, free markets, and the rule of law would be more like it, and it is not a violation of heaven's law of selflessness. In the new earth we shall have personal possessions.

Isa 65

"21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;

They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

22 They shall not build and another inhabit;

They shall not plant and another eat;"

Anything can be abused, but abuse does not prohibit use.

Free markets were not invented in the U.S. In fact, they are the fundamental form of exchange in any economy, and have been at least since Abraham bought the cave of macpelah.

Niall Ferguson, who wrote the book on Empire (you could look it up on Amazon) is concerned because the U.S. is not accepting the role of Empire.

And to top it all off, the idea of interpreting the Bible via newspaper headlines is bogus. B-O-G-U-S.

But if we're going to interpret the Bible by newspaper stories, I'd have to say that the U.S. is an anti-Christian nation. When you can teach Islam and Wicca in the public schools, but even historical references--like the tiny cross in the LA county seal--must be removed, it's far more anti- than Christian.

Ellen White, who supported Prohibition, would not be worried by the Christian activity in the U.S., but appalled at the decline of Christian morality.

April 3, 2005

Quote:

Look at all the killing that has been done in the name of God and religion.

Since 1789, the body count for godlessness and anti-religion is far greater. In the twentieth century Communism accounted for in excess of 100,000,000 peacetime deaths of their own people. Not counting WWII, the death camps of the Nazis(also anti-religous), WWI, or any of the other wars, mostly in the name of ideology. So....

Look at all the killing that has been done in the name of godlessness, it is happening here.

April 3, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

That is a common mistake. Do waters always = population?

Did I say it always = population?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

First of all, Rev. 17:15 is quite specific, not general, in its designation: “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages."

What is this verse saying waters is?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If waters = population, then the following should be true:

Why does it have to be true? Am I not to interpret things in context?

April 3, 2005

Quote:

Am I not to interpret things in context?

Then do so. I was just following your lead, applying waters the way you did. There's nothing in Rev. 13 or its immediate context to indicate that the waters there equal population.

At the same time, Rev 17 is quite specific, "The waters where the prostitute sits,"--so it doesn't apply to Rev. 13 which has no link whatsoever to "the waters where the prostitute sits."

Be consistent.

April 3, 2005

Quote:

Free people, free markets, and the rule of law would be more like it, and it is not a violation of heaven's law of selflessness. In the new earth we shall have personal possessions.

Who are you kidding? Capitalism is based on selfishness....It is based on self-seeking. That, my confused friend, is a violation of heaven's law of selflessness!

Free-market? What a joke! More like slave market....Checked out how corporate America is taking advantage of the Chinese? Free-trade? No...unfair trade. But that's another story.

Quote:

They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat....

You lifted the above out of its context....Let's revisit your quote:

9 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.....[Your quote goes here] 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat....

Clearly the context is referring to being invaded....In fact in Christ's day Israel was under Roman oppression.

If you want to see what heaven will be like check out Acts 2:44/4:32....But that's another subject on another post.

April 3, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I think it is wrong to identify a specific country (the USA) with the Rev 13:11 beast. It is not surprising that this identification was made by a small outcast group of Americans, and maintained by an American-dominated denomination.

Bevin, who are the outcast group that identified this, and which denomination maintains it?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Out of the earth compared to the first coming out of the sea. It is hard to show that this refers to unpopulated v. populated physical regions.

What other explanations are there for "out of the earth"?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Two-horns like a lamb. Everywhere else in Revelation the SDA identify horns as either kings or kingdoms. The USA does not have two rulers or kingdoms.

Two rulers no, but the U.S. has two kingdoms...kingdoms meaning governing principles, which are religious and civil liberty. Perhaps it is refering to this. Also notice in Revelation 13, that the land beast lacks crowns which the sea beast had. I believe this means a government without a monarchy.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Spoke like a dragon Not like the beast.

Exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf

Made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast

So far, the USA does not meet any of these.

The land beast hasn't made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast...yet!

April 3, 2005

Quote:

Since 1789, the body count for godlessness and anti-religion is far greater. In the twentieth century Communism accounted for in excess of 100,000,000

peacetime deaths of their own people

.

Communism is a religion....Sure, it isn't based on belief in God, but nonetheless communism tries to make men unselfish. Give everyone the same things and they won't covet....They will share until sharing becomes natural.

Communism is men's attempt at ridding the human race of selfishness....The only problem is that mankind isn't selfish by environment, he is selfish by nature.

April 3, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I was just following your lead, applying waters the way you did. There's nothing in Rev. 13 or its immediate context to indicate that the waters there equal population.

At the same time, Rev 17 is quite specific, "The waters where the prostitute sits,"--so it doesn't apply to Rev. 13 which has no link whatsoever to "the waters where the prostitute sits."

Perhaps there is a link though. Let's take a look at the verse following Rev 17:15.

Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. Revelation 17:15-16.

Seems to me the waters mentioned in verse 15 is linked to the beast mentioned in verse 16, yes? The same beast in Revelation 13.

April 3, 2005

Rev 17:9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits....

Where be dat?

April 3, 2005

Dat be the city of seven hills, along the river Tiber...Rome.

April 3, 2005

[]http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/images/k8000.gif[/]

April 4, 2005

Quote:

Who are you kidding? Capitalism is based on selfishness....It is based on self-seeking. That, my confused friend, is a violation of heaven's law of selflessness!

Free-market? What a joke! More like slave market....Checked out how corporate America is taking advantage of the Chinese? Free-trade? No...unfair trade. But that's another story.

Sorry, I forgot I was talking to heaven's lawmaker.

April 4, 2005

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"These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." --THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

in

HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. THE UNITED STATES

143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226

February 29, 1892

"This was a unanimous decision and has never been reversed."

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