Grace- The One and Only: Louie Giglio

[Gail]

Has anyone seen this yet? Giglio covers the basic "how" of grace nicely (although at this point I've only viewed the first 2 segments. In the part I just saw he goes through Romans 5, which I love.

He mentions an interview with Bono, where Bono describes the world's religions' basis being "karma". IOW, what you do in life will reflect upon you in the end when it's time to meet God.

He then talks about grace- how if he had to rely on karma he wouldn't have a hope (basic gist of the message). He spoke of the difference between karma and grace.

That's one way of putting it! I liked that! :)

[phkrause]

No I have not seen this, but I do have some other stuff of his which I really love.

[Kevin H]

I second what pkrause said!

[skyblue888]

Okay lets say you lived a saintly life. You will be rewarded for your good works which the grace of God will have enabled you to do but these good works do not play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit (karma) The proposition that these good works have any merit toward the salvation of the soul would be rejected by God as treason. Why? Because we are accepted only through the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice. Thus we read: "Works without faith are dead and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us. It is the merits of Christ that will avail in our behalf." F.W.48.

Faith lays right hold of the merits of Christ which brings the grace of God into the life and this grace enables us to do good works. This is the faith which works by love. (Gal.5:6) God rewards the good works which He Himself enables us to do and yet these good works do not play a part in the salvation of the soul. Only the merits of Christ will avail in our behalf.

Gail, is this how Giglio puts it?

sky

[Gail]

Yes, although not using your words. It was a very basic grace message, but he did stress that works result from the grace transaction which is a gift. Jesus provided not only forgiveness but restoration for us by His blood.

It was interesting in that he did not discount obedience (some are tempted to count those who stress obedience and commandment-keeping as legalism) but said that obedience is a result of grace. And ALL of it comes by what Jesus did (his merits)

[Gail]

Quote:

Okay lets say you lived a saintly life. You will be rewarded for your good works which the grace of God will have enabled you to do but these good works do not play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit (karma) The proposition that these good works have any merit toward the salvation of the soul would be rejected by God as treason. Why? Because we are accepted only through the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice. Thus we read: "Works without faith are dead and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us. It is the merits of Christ that will avail in our behalf." F.W.48.

I'm not sure that you read what I wrote...

Bono was discounting karma (which he saw as the basis of all the world's religions except for Christianity) in favour of God's grace because of man's inability to produce works good enough to save himself.

Both men were agreeing with what you are saying.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

Okay lets say you lived a saintly life. You will be rewarded for your good works which the grace of God will have enabled you to do but these good works do not play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit (karma) The proposition that these good works have any merit toward the salvation of the soul would be rejected by God as treason. Why? Because we are accepted only through the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice. Thus we read: "Works without faith are dead and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us. It is the merits of Christ that will avail in our behalf." F.W.48.

I'm not sure that you read what I wrote...

Bono was discounting karma (which he saw as the basis of all the world's religions except for Christianity) in favour of God's grace because of man's inability to produce works good enough to save himself.

Both men were agreeing with what you are saying.

Gail, it gives the impression that these men are saying that because of man's inability to produce enough good works to save himself, he must accept God's grace but God's grace enables man to produce good works. So the question is, Can the grace of God produce enough good works in man in order to save himself? The answer is "no," of course, since good works will never save us. It is the merits of Christ that will avail in our behalf. True, the Lord will reward these good works but in and of themselves they have no merit toward our salvation.

sky

[Gail]

Again you are misunderstanding me. And them! I sure hope you don't make judgments so easily of others!

Good works comes as a RESULT of salvation. They come as a result of what Christ has done. They do not contribute to salvation at all but as a gift victory is given to you. Accept salvation through faith now and NOW you receive the gift, which includes not only forgiveness (freedom from your burden of guilt) but a new heart. A saved person's works do not do the saving, because through Christ the saving was already done. That was Giglio's emphasis.

Does that make it easier?

[skyblue888]

Gail, you are misunderstanding me.

I am trying to tell you that they are talking about grace as though grace was the only thing that mattered whereas inspiration shows how important it is to understand the relation between faith, grace, works, merits, and reward.

sky :)

[Gail]

There was no talk of any reward for any works. Obedience is a gift, the change of a heart is a gift that comes through grace. It is power for victory, which is the hope for those who are struggling.

It's actually nice to see other preachers talking about victory connected to what Christ did, having for a standard the 10 Commandments to boot, instead of either preaching that the law was done away with or that love was all one needed or salvation in one's sins.

[Gail]

Gail, you are misunderstanding me.

I am trying to tell you that they are talking about grace as though grace was the only thing that mattered whereas inspiration shows how important it is to understand the relation between faith, grace, works, merits, and reward.

He touched on it, yes! It was an introductory grace message (the starting point), so not everything is going to come at once, but he's heading there.

Obviously he will not have all that we are blessed with, but coming from where he is coming from, it's not bad at all.

[skyblue888]

But Gail, there would be no faith, no grace, no good works, no reward, if it were not for the merits of Christ. The emphasis is to be put upon the merits of Christ, upon faith in the merits of Christ in order to obtain this grace which enables us to do good works. And we must not forget to emphasise that even the good works that the grace of God (Holy Spirit) enables us to do have no merit toward our salvation.

I am not putting down what they are saying. I am only suggesting where the emphasis should be because unless we appropriate the merits of Christ to ourselves, understanding that God accepts us only through the merits of Christ's sacrifice, we cannot receive the grace that alone can enable us to do good works, the grace that alone can bring the righteousness of Christ into the life and which is manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God.

sky

[skyblue888]

Please share with us if you find that this is something they have made clear. Thanks.

yes, I agree, not bad for where they are coming from, may be better than some of us even.

sky

[Gail]

How do you know he isn't saying that?

You have condemned him without even having a look.

[Gail]

Please share with us if you find that this is something they have made clear. Thanks.

yes, I agree, not bad for where they are coming from, may be better than some of us even.

For a couple of reasons:

First of all, because of the hard idea that we need to believe in salvation as being accepted by the heart as well as the mind (appropriating the merits).

Secondly, because he brings out how much larger and more awesome salvation is than what we (yes, even in the church) generally believe. Like Romans 5 says, how "much more" are we saved by Christ's life than by His death. It is not merely a mental assent but a whole changed life that God gives us.

The reason this excites me when I see it is that as Seventh-Day Adventists, when communicating with those outside our faith, is that we can build on this with what we know, because there is a starting place we can work with. There are some fundamental truths that are common. This goes far in building bridges and friendships.

[Gail]

The last few years I have seen some interesting developments:

I've seen many things come into the church, some strange and some wonderful. I think to myself that the shaking time will produce some interesting results!

The other thing I've noticed is that some of those on the mainstream have and are starting to latch on to truths that our people either no longer hold on to OR truths that as a church we still hold.

It has been a wonder to behold, in both a good and a bad sense. I can only imagine the surprises we will experience on both sides of the shaking.

Often I think that mainstream Christianity will also experience a shaking... A church that takes a stand on the Sabbath will jostle where they came from as well.

Let's use what we can to encourage all in the right direction. I'm sure that some of what we can use will come from unexpected places.

[skyblue888]

How do you know he isn't saying that?

You have condemned him without even having a look.

My comments were based on what you posted. You yourself said that you had not read everything they wrote yet.

I have not condemned anyone.

sky :)