The Bible and SOP On Debating

[John317]

Avoid foolish questions [foolish speculations], and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings [dissensions and controversies] about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain [futile]. Titus 3:9. {UL 270.1}

The Holy Spirit does not work with men who love to be sharp and critical. This spirit has been cherished in meeting debaters, and some have formed the habit of squaring [off] for combat. God is dishonored in this. Keep back the sharp thrusts; do not learn in Satan's school his methods of warfare. The Holy Spirit does not inspire the words of censure. A time of trouble is before us, and every honest soul who has not had the light of truth will then take a stand for Christ. Those who believe the truth are to be newly converted every day. Then they will be vessels unto honor. {UL 270.2}

Do not repeat the words of your opponents, or enter into controversy with them. You meet not merely the men, but Satan and his angels. Christ did not bring against Satan a railing accusation concerning the body of Moses. If the world's Redeemer, who understood the crooked, deceptive arts of Satan, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but in holiness and humility said, "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan," is it not wise for His servants to follow His example? Will finite human beings take a course that Christ shunned, because it would afford Satan occasion to pervert, misrepresent, and falsify the truth? {UL 270.3}

..."Men will go forth in the spirit and power of Elijah to prepare the way for the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is their work to make crooked things straight. Some things must be torn down, some things must be built up. The old treasures must be reset in a framework of truth. They are to preach God's Word; their testimony must not be molded by the opinions and ideas that have been regarded as sound, but by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. They are to lift up Christ and call sinners to repentance. They are to practice the graces of Christ, to pursue a straightforward course, breaking down skepticism and urging upon all their personal responsibility to be kind and courteous, to do good and to win souls to Jesus. {1888 169.1}

The Scripture should not be treated in a debating style. Those who have educated themselves as debaters have so increased their spirit of combativeness that they are ready to cavil over the Word of God, to resist and oppose everything that disagrees with their ideas or opinions. They are in their element when an opportunity is offered for them to question and criticize, for it is natural for them to be ready for battle at any time. They will play upon words, misinterpret and misstate, because this has become a settled habit with them, a second nature. Nothing is safe in their hands. Now, the Lord desires that those who are in this condition should be converted, that they become as little children--simple, meek, teachable, and Christlike. {1888 169.2}

..."We would discourage the discipline that tends to make persons debaters. We urge you not to connect young men who are learning to be teachers of Bible truth with one who has a debating spirit, for they will surely receive the wrong mold of character. The habitual debater is so accustomed to beclouding and turning aside evidence, and even the Scriptures, from the true meaning to win his point, that everything that does not strike him favorably and is not in harmony with his ideas he will combat, caviling at God's inspired Word. {1888 168.5}

I was shown that here is the danger of young ministers who engage in discussion: They turn their minds to the study of the word to gather the sharp things, and they become sarcastic, and in their efforts to meet an opponent, too frequently leave God out of the question. The excitement of debate lessens their interest in meetings where this special excitement does not exist. Those who engage in debates are not the most successful laborers, and the best adapted to build up the cause. By some, discussion is coveted, and they prefer this kind of labor above any other. They do not study the Bible with humility of mind, that they may know how to attain the love of God; as Paul says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God." [EPH. 3:17-19.] {GW92 181.1}

2Co 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

A modern translation: "I hope you do not imagine that all this time we have been defending ourselves to you. It is in relation to Christ that we are speaking before God, and everything [we are saying], beloved, is directed toward your spiritual upbuilding."

2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates [contention], envyings [suspicion], wraths [ill will], strifes [self-seeking], backbitings [slander], whisperings [gossip], swellings [conceit], tumults [disorder].

[Gerr]

OUCH!!!

[Tom Wetmore]

Sobering to reflect upon, it is...

[miz3]

Does this mean that Stan needs to shut down this website?

[John317]

No. The medium itself is not at fault. I think what it means is that we all need to reflect on what we know is right and try hard to put what we know into practice. Everyone has to make up his own mind about it.

[Dr. Rich]

EGW, Evangelism page 344: "The great missionary field is open to men, and the subject must be agitated, agitated, again and again. The people must understand that it is not the hearers of the Word but the doers of the Word that will have eternal life." (Also in the R&H, Dec. 12, 1878)

AMEN!

[John317]

Glad you see you studying and agreeing with Ellen White.

I'm sure that you can see that quote does not contradict the previous quotes that were posted.

[Dr. Rich]

Glad you see you studying and agreeing with Ellen White.

I'm sure that you can see that quote does not contradict the previous quotes that were posted.

Oh, but I believe they do, my friend. Ever read how EGW treated those who debated with her and showed and told her where and why she was wrong? Sure glad Jesus didn't do that to those who asked Him questions. Jesus didn't hold any punches when He gave His answers. ("you vipers")

[Scion]

I think the issue here is the manner in which we approach those controversies and agitations over our beliefs. Are we trying to "win the argument" or are we trying to "save souls?" The Bible tells us that there are different ways of winning over different people. Paul said, "I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (1Cor 9:22)

Jude wrote, "And of some have compassion, making a difference; and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:22, 23)

It looks like there is a time and place for both, but the spirit behind it must be constant, and I think Mrs. White was either addressing specific instances (a lot of the time her quotes are pulled out of letters to individuals and presented in the books as general "rules" of behavior - occasionally leading to apparent contradictions) or focusing more on the attitude rather than the occasions of verbal disputes.

[Sonny]

OUCH!!!

Ditto

[Gail]

[phkrause]

Interesting John and like Gerry said, "OUCH." :)

[phkrause]

No. The medium itself is not at fault. I think what it means is that we all need to reflect on what we know is right and try hard to put what we know into practice. Everyone has to make up his own mind about it.

I believe its also the way and how some debate. Like "I'm right and your not."

[John317]

I think the issue here is the manner in which we approach those controversies and agitations over our beliefs. Are we trying to "win the argument" or are we trying to "save souls?" .

If it is merely a matter of winning an argument, it is NOTHING and worse than nothing.

[John317]

I believe its also the way and how some debate. Like "I'm right and your not."

I don't think there's anything wrong with believing you're right and the other "side" is wrong. That is to be expected, if a person is sincere. God does not hold this against anyone. The real problem is when people get angry and call names and get personal in the discussion. If we find ourselves doing those things, it is better not to have the discussion. But throughout a really useful discussion, both sides will keep an open mind to learning something new and truly LISTEN. Otherwise, the two sides are talking past each other.

[phkrause]

I don't think there's anything wrong with believing you're right and the other "side" is wrong. That is to be expected, if a person is sincere. God does not hold this against anyone. The real problem is when people get angry and call names and get personal in the discussion. If we find ourselves doing those things, it is better not to have the discussion. But throughout a really useful discussion, both sides will keep an open mind to learning something new and truly LISTEN. Otherwise, the two sides are talking past each other.

I agree John. That's what I was wanting to say but didn't say it correctly.

[miz3]

I think it is vital to Love the Truth (God) more than anything!

I also think the second ingredient along with a Love of the Truth is to have the Honesty to admit you have been wrong when it is clear you have been wrong. This requires that you lay your sinful Pride aside. (extremely difficult for humans).

The third vital ingredient is to lay aside your human logic and listen to the still small voice of the Holy Spirit!

[Guest]

Avoid foolish questions [foolish speculations], and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings [dissensions and controversies] about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain [futile]. Titus 3:9. {UL 270.1}

The Holy Spirit does not work with men who love to be sharp and critical. This spirit has been cherished in meeting debaters, and some have formed the habit of squaring [off] for combat. God is dishonored in this. Keep back the sharp thrusts; do not learn in Satan's school his methods of warfare. The Holy Spirit does not inspire the words of censure. A time of trouble is before us, and every honest soul who has not had the light of truth will then take a stand for Christ. Those who believe the truth are to be newly converted every day. Then they will be vessels unto honor. {UL 270.2}

Do not repeat the words of your opponents, or enter into controversy with them. You meet not merely the men, but Satan and his angels. Christ did not bring against Satan a railing accusation concerning the body of Moses. If the world's Redeemer, who understood the crooked, deceptive arts of Satan, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but in holiness and humility said, "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan," is it not wise for His servants to follow His example? Will finite human beings take a course that Christ shunned, because it would afford Satan occasion to pervert, misrepresent, and falsify the truth? {UL 270.3}

..."Men will go forth in the spirit and power of Elijah to prepare the way for the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is their work to make crooked things straight. Some things must be torn down, some things must be built up. The old treasures must be reset in a framework of truth. They are to preach God's Word; their testimony must not be molded by the opinions and ideas that have been regarded as sound, but by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. They are to lift up Christ and call sinners to repentance. They are to practice the graces of Christ, to pursue a straightforward course, breaking down skepticism and urging upon all their personal responsibility to be kind and courteous, to do good and to win souls to Jesus. {1888 169.1}

The Scripture should not be treated in a debating style. Those who have educated themselves as debaters have so increased their spirit of combativeness that they are ready to cavil over the Word of God, to resist and oppose everything that disagrees with their ideas or opinions. They are in their element when an opportunity is offered for them to question and criticize, for it is natural for them to be ready for battle at any time. They will play upon words, misinterpret and misstate, because this has become a settled habit with them, a second nature. Nothing is safe in their hands. Now, the Lord desires that those who are in this condition should be converted, that they become as little children--simple, meek, teachable, and Christlike. {1888 169.2}

..."We would discourage the discipline that tends to make persons debaters. We urge you not to connect young men who are learning to be teachers of Bible truth with one who has a debating spirit, for they will surely receive the wrong mold of character. The habitual debater is so accustomed to beclouding and turning aside evidence, and even the Scriptures, from the true meaning to win his point, that everything that does not strike him favorably and is not in harmony with his ideas he will combat, caviling at God's inspired Word. {1888 168.5}

I was shown that here is the danger of young ministers who engage in discussion: They turn their minds to the study of the word to gather the sharp things, and they become sarcastic, and in their efforts to meet an opponent, too frequently leave God out of the question. The excitement of debate lessens their interest in meetings where this special excitement does not exist. Those who engage in debates are not the most successful laborers, and the best adapted to build up the cause. By some, discussion is coveted, and they prefer this kind of labor above any other. They do not study the Bible with humility of mind, that they may know how to attain the love of God; as Paul says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God." [EPH. 3:17-19.] {GW92 181.1}

2Co 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

A modern translation: "I hope you do not imagine that all this time we have been defending ourselves to you. It is in relation to Christ that we are speaking before God, and everything [we are saying], beloved, is directed toward your spiritual upbuilding."

2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates [contention], envyings [suspicion], wraths [ill will], strifes [self-seeking], backbitings [slander], whisperings [gossip], swellings [conceit], tumults [disorder].

This is good advise. I must try to do better...

[Dr. Rich]

One who only 'tries' to do better will never do better. You either do it or not. But what I want to know is this: What is it you want to do better? Is it debating? One can't debate correctly if they are prejudiced in the first place.

[Guest]

Quote:

One can't debate correctly if they are prejudiced in the first place.

Does this mean you will be hanging up your debating hat?

[Gustave]

The Scriptures do NOT teach that debate is a bad thing in fact it teaches the opposite...

...Certainly Ellen White pushed the idea that debate is wrong but as some of her other teachings - it's a shibboleth.

Proverbs 25:9

Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another

Acts 15,2

When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension AND disputation with them

Acts 17:2

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures

Acts 18:19

And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews

SDA publications have been saturated with printed debates....

...Between SDA's and non-SDA's - all under the glowing approval of Ellen.

[miz3]

Good Biblical support Gustave!

[teresaq]

I think the issue here is the manner in which we approach those controversies and agitations over our beliefs. Are we trying to "win the argument" or are we trying to "save souls?" The Bible tells us that there are different ways of winning over different people. Paul said, "I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (1Cor 9:22)

Jude wrote, "And of some have compassion, making a difference; and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:22, 23)

It looks like there is a time and place for both, but the spirit behind it must be constant, and I think Mrs. White was either addressing specific instances (a lot of the time her quotes are pulled out of letters to individuals and presented in the books as general "rules" of behavior - occasionally leading to apparent contradictions) or focusing more on the attitude rather than the occasions of verbal disputes.

I think you got the real meaning behind the words. It can be such a struggle...

On the same lines is the need to defend God, the bible, SOP-Ellen White, the church, at the expense of the one we should be witnessing to.

So, yes, are we trying to reach someone's heart with respect and tact? Or just prove them wrong no matter how far from God we may push thme? They may never "shape up", change their mind, or whatever....but we will have "brownie points" with God-and hopefully a place in heaven. :)

[miz3]

It depends on which way God is leading!

If God like He did with Moses wanted no debate just ultimatums then you do that!

If like Elijah you challenge the basic assumptions and make fun of your adversary then you do that!

If like Stephen in the Book of Acts, you do that, debate!

If like Christ with the Pharisees in Matthew 23 and John 8 you do that!

If like Christ with the Woman at the Well you do that!

If God wants you be silent like Jesus at His trumped up trial then you do that!

There certainly are more options than those listed above, however the point I am trying to make is that which ever tactic, strategy, approach, etc. God wants you take then you had better take it!

If not then you are outside of God's will and that is indeed dangerous ground!