What has Ellen White written about the use of sarcasm?

[cricket]

Has Ellen White written anything about the use of sarcasm during verbal and social intercourse with our fellow man?

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes.

"Sarcasm and playing upon the words of an opponent are all out of God's order." - GW 156

"When tempted to say sarcastic things, refrain." - GW 467

"The cold, critical, sarcastic spirit which has found place in your hearts has driven out the love of Jesus. Expel this spirit which is not of Christ, supply the vacuum with the spirit of Jesus, and you will then be vessels unto honor, workmen for God who need not to be ashamed." - {1888 937.1}

"When in your discourses, you denounce with bitter sarcasm that which you wish to condemn, you sometimes offend your hearers, and their ears are turned from hearing you further. Carefully avoid any severity of speech that might give offense to those you desire to save from error; for it will be difficult to overcome the feelings of antagonism thus aroused. . . ." {Ev 304.2}

[miz3]

I guess Elijah on Mount Carmel violated these quotes!

[Light Fox]

Elijah's actions at that time can hardly be held up as the picture of Christian perfection. He immediately thereafter fled from Jezebel and went into hiding.

Here's an interesting quote to consider in the "whole picture" of things:

"Paul had formerly been known as a zealous defender of the Jewish religion and an untiring persecutor of the followers of Jesus. Courageous, independent, persevering, his talents and training would have enabled him to serve in almost any capacity. He could reason with extraordinary clearness, and by his withering sarcasm could place an opponent in no enviable light. And now the Jews saw this young man of unusual promise united with those whom he formerly persecuted, and fearlessly preaching in the name of Jesus. [...] An eloquent speaker and a severe critic, Paul, with his stern purpose and undaunted courage, possessed the very qualifications needed in the early church."

This seems to list "withering sarcasm" as a positive talent in Paul's case. Any thoughts on how that harmonizes with the above list?

[miz3]

Qinael,

You are not acquainted with the Mount Carmel story or you would not make such a statement.

While on Mount Carmel, Elijah was God's Prophet doing exactly what God wanted Elijah to do. That is Fact! Included in that FACT is the withering sarcasm Elijah addressed to the prophets of Baal! If Elijah's sarcasm was not in line with God's will then Elijah would not have had his prayer to God answered on the two occasions he prayed on Mount Carmel. God never reprimanded Elijah for his sarcasm. In fact Elijah on Mount Carmel is exactly the Picture of Christian Perfection!

As to Elijah's fleeing Jezebel that is a separate incident and in that incident God did reprimand Elijah for fleeing Jezebel because that was not the Lord's will.

These are two separate experiences. In one (Mount Carmel) Elijah is the picture of Christian Perfection. In the other (fleeing Jezebel) Elijah is the picture of imperfection (not trusting in God).

Please Qinael get your facts straight. Maybe you should spend more time in the Bible and less time in other readings that confuse you!

[John317]

This seems to list "withering sarcasm" as a positive talent in Paul's case. Any thoughts on how that harmonizes with the above list?

Nowhere does Ellen White say that Paul used "withering sarcasim" after his Damascus road experience. In the quote you gave us, Ellen White is merely stating that Paul knew the art of rhetoric and had extraordinary skills. Obviously since Paul's conversion, his tactics would be different than they had been before he met Jesus.

There are proper times for the use of sarcasim, but those times are fairly rare for the Christian with love in his heart. I don't believe Christ ever took pleasure in making people look bad, but sometimes it is necessary in order to get people to really think deeply and seriously about their lives and the consequences of their choices. That is what Elijah was doing on Mt. Carmel. He was helping us to see how foolish people are to put their faith in false gods.

[Light Fox]

My point is that Elijah had issues to work out as far as his sanctification. It wouldn't hold up to examination to say that because Elijah used it there, therefore it's a good example for our behavior. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with John's assessment of the Carmel experience. Thanks for that.

Actually, thanks to you as well Miz. It's not without a little irony that the first reply to a thread about sarcasm is a single sarcastic sentence. While I don't appreciate the cynical personal attacks (here or elsewhere), you are, at least, giving a good example of the wrong use of sarcasm and severity of speech. In a sort of unintentional way, you're extremely on-topic here. :)

[miz3]

While I don't appreciate the cynical personal attacks (here or elsewhere), you are, at least, giving a good example of the wrong use of sarcasm and severity of speech. In a sort of unintentional way, you're extremely on-topic here.

Is this your attempt at "withering sarcasm"?

Maybe you have similar shortcomings like those you accuse Elijah of!

Maybe, just maybe, you have not overcome all known sin. Certainly at least we would expect you to practice what you preach!

By the way John's version of Elijah is the same as mine!

[cricket]

Thank you, Tom and Qinael for the words of Ellen White.

[Gail]

"The cold, critical, sarcastic spirit which has found place in your hearts has driven out the love of Jesus. Expel this spirit which is not of Christ, supply the vacuum with the spirit of Jesus, and you will then be vessels unto honor, workmen for God who need not to be ashamed." - {1888 937.1}

"When in your discourses, you denounce with bitter sarcasm that which you wish to condemn, you sometimes offend your hearers, and their ears are turned from hearing you further. Carefully avoid any severity of speech that might give offense to those you desire to save from error; for it will be difficult to overcome the feelings of antagonism thus aroused. . . ." {Ev 304.2}

Did anyone actually read these? I think this is good counsel for us all. I appreciated these words- thanks, Tom, for finding them!

[miz3]

In addition to Elijah and his sarcasm, I guess Jesus Christ Himself missed these quotes when dealing with the Pharisees and Sadducees of His day.

[Tom Wetmore]

I agree with you that it is clear that EGW is referring to pre-Damascus Paul. However, I do not think he abandoned the use of sarcasm. I can think of two specific occasions where he employed a rather sarcastic tone to his rebukes.

In response to the Jews pushing for gentile circumcision in Galatia, he rather sarcastically suggested it would be well for those Jewish agitators to not stop at circumcision but go all the way and to castrate themselves.

And to the dysfunctional Corinthians that couldn't resolve their petty and trivial differences amongst themselves without going to outsiders, he rebuked them pointedly to shame them by saying such trivial disputes could be resolved by even the lowest no-accounts of the church. He said certainly there must be someone in the church smart enough to take care of such matters.

I am not so sure that the Jewish culture of the day was as worried about sarcasm as we seem to be now or by the standards of conduct of the proper New England circumspection of EGW.

[John317]

Sure, I agree. Paul was well trained in rheotric, which included the use of irony. But the point I would make is that even when Paul used it in his epistles, we don't see him using it in a way that is unChristian. Paul's motives and principles had changed.

I don't think we would say that Paul was a sarcastic person. That didn't describe or summarize Paul's character. Maybe it did Saul, but after Christ confronted him on the road to Damuscus, he became a changed man.

[Gail]

Is sarcasm and wit the same thing?

[John317]

It sounds like you mean something more along the line of being skilled in a swift, witty response.

The first definition in the dictionary of sarcasm is "a cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound."

So wit can include sarcasm, but it doesn't always.

I don't believe Paul's use of sarcasm was ever intended to wound. He was using it to help people see the truth.

[cricket]

In addition to Elijah and his sarcasm, I guess Jesus Christ Himself missed these quotes when dealing with the Pharisees and Sadducees of His day.

Will you show me an example of Jesus' use of sarcasm?

[cricket]

The first definition in the dictionary of sarcasm is "a cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound."

This definition is the one I am particularly interested in. Though I did not supply this definition in my original post, this is the definition I was mostly inquiring about.

[John317]

Yes, and Jesus never used that kind of sarcasm.

[miz3]

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

Matthew 23:15.

I would call that a sarcastic remark! It is a very cutting remark intended to wound!

[miz3]

"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it."

Matthew 23:16-22.

Again, I would say that is sarcasm. Definitely a cutting remark, definitely making fun of their logic, definitely intended to wound.

[cricket]

Thank you for both of those examples, miz3. I will have to look into them more, but I really do appreciate you taking the time to find them.

Gives me plenty to think on for a while!

[miz3]

Maybe the whole chapter of Matthew chapter 23 is not strict sarcasm but it is extremely cutting.

If Jesus Christ were to post what He said in Matthew chapter 23 here on Club Adventist I am sure that John317 would delete the whole thing and reprimand the poster at MINIMUM!

The severity of those remarks might also get Jesus Christ kicked out of the Theology Townhall.

In other words Jesus Christ is definitely not in the "spirit" or even the "letter" of the remarks being made about "sarcasm" on this thread.

You cannot just sweep Matthew chapter twenty-three under the rug and discount it. Jesus Christ said it and it was most severe and most cutting!

[ClubV12]

We have "imagination" and then there is "sanctified imagination". We have sarcasm, and then there is "sanctified sarcasm". I believe there is a significant difference! :)

[miz3]

That's funny ClubV12!