The Faith of Jesus

[Stan]

Quote:

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Todays Question.

Define the "Faith of Jesus"

[Gail]

Good one! I've asked this several times over the years.

Is it- the same faith that Jesus had or is it faith IN Jesus (as opposed to others that one might put one's faith in)?

[Musicman1228]

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Rev. 14:12.(ESV)

Faith in Strong's - from 3982 peitho pi'-tho:agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

This translation indicates that it is those that keep the Commandments (Covenant/10 Commandments) of God that have their 'faith' (see above) IN Jesus. That makes more sense to me than Jesus having some need for 'faith'.

[12tribes]

Faith is a gift of God

Ephesians 2:8

(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Jesus trusted in God although He felt forsaken

Mark 15:34

(34) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Luke 23:46

(46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

God's people will trust God although they cannot buy or sell and have the death penalty against them, they will need the 'faith of Jesus' to do this.

Revelation 13:15-17

(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

[ClubV12]

Oh dear, do we have to choose one or the other Gail?

I like the idea that we should have faith LIKE Jesus had, in that He could do nothing without receiving the power to do from on high. I can barely comprehend spending all night in prayer. Or rising very early in the morning to once again pray. He sought His strength from the Father, I believe that is the example for us, strength from the Father, in Jesus name, we ask!

Faith IN Jesus, because without Him we cannot approach the throne, our sinful state would result in instant death from the Fathers glory. But in Jesus, through His merits, His work, His life, we are covered and sinless before the throne of God.

[CoAspen]

Christs trust and faith was in God.

[Musicman1228]

Faith at it's base is unproven belief. As you grow in the knowledge and understanding of the truth ideally you should also be replacing 'faith' with 'trust'. Trust, then, is proven belief; and that proof is based on the past performance of the person in which you are developing that trust.

God is ALWAYS trustworthy; what He says He will do He WILL do. So the method by which we move from 'faith' to 'trust' comes about by gaining experience in the fact that God always does what He says He will do. The more experience the more trust, and consequently the LESS faith one needs. Eventually and ideally we should be working to be just like Jesus, that is, with complete trust in our 'Father', just as Jesus had.

Therefore, the above text should read 'faith IN Jesus'. And in reality the word translated 'faith' should actually be 'trust', because 'pistis' (Strong's 4102) is translated as 'moral conviction of Truth'.

[John317]

Rev. 14: 12 says, literally, "... the saints who obey [or keep] the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Iesou is genitive case, meaning that it is possessive.

It can be understood either as "of Jesus" or "about Jesus."

It may well have been written as it was in order for it to include both meanings.

However, it is possible to translate it as "faith in Jesus," because the dative case here is the same form as the genitive.

"Faith" is the same as "belief" and "trust." In the NT, there's no difference between any of those words. From the biblical viewpoint, "trust in Jesus" is exactly the same as having faith in Christ.

[phkrause]

Rev. 14: 12 says, literally, "... the saints who obey [or keep] the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Iesou is genitive case, meaning that it is possessive.

It can be understood either as "of Jesus" or "about Jesus."

It may well have been written as it was in order for it to include both meanings.

However, it is possible to translate it as "faith [trust] in Jesus," because the dative case here is the same form as the genitive.

"Faith" is the same as "belief" and "trust." In the NT, there's no difference between any of those words. From the biblical viewpoint, "trust in Jesus" is exactly the same as having faith in Christ.

[Musicman1228]

Rev. 14: 12 says, literally, "... the saints who obey [or keep] the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Iesou is genitive case, meaning that it is possessive.

It can be understood either as "of Jesus" or "about Jesus."

It may well have been written as it was in order for it to include both meanings.

However, it is possible to translate it as "faith in Jesus," because the dative case here is the same as the genitive.

"Faith" is the same as "belief" and "trust." In the NT, there's no difference between any of those words. From the biblical viewpoint, "trust in Jesus" is exactly the same as having faith in Christ.

I have no doubt that what you have said is true (that 'faith', 'belief', and 'trust' in the NT mean EXACTLY the same thing) then why did the translators use these three different words in different situations? If they mean the same thing then why not just pick one and go with that word over the other two?

Also, in modern common usage the three words in question are used in different ways and have different meanings. This DOES affect the way people today read and understand the verse in question, because they automatically believe that faith has a different meaning than trust, even if (as you say) these words actually mean the same thing. Do you see my point?

[John317]

"Faith" is the same as "belief" and "trust." In the NT, there's no difference between any of those words. From the biblical viewpoint, "trust in Jesus" is exactly the same as having faith in Christ.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

I have no doubt that what you have said is true (that 'faith', 'belief', and 'trust' in the NT mean EXACTLY the same thing) then why did the translators use these three different words in different situations? If they mean the same thing then why not just pick one and go with that word over the other two?

Some translations-- the more literal ones-- do use the same word every time a particular Greek word occurs. But most Bibles, such as the King James Version, never attempted such consistency, because the translators were also interested in the way the translation sounds and looks.

But could you give examples of what you mean by "three different words in different situations"?

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Also, in modern common usage the three words in question are used in different ways and have different meanings. This DOES affect the way people today read and understand the verse in question, because they automatically believe that faith has a different meaning than trust, even if (as you say) these words actually mean the same thing. Do you see my point?

Yes, I do see your point. I think that if people understand them as meaning widely differently things, then it would be necessary to use a particular word that is closest to the meaning of the word used in the context.

I'm not convinced that people see "faith" and "trust" or "firm confidence" or "reliance" as meaning very different things. Do you believe they do?

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

"Faith" is the same as "belief" and "trust." In the NT, there's no difference between any of those words. From the biblical viewpoint, "trust in Jesus" is exactly the same as having faith in Christ.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

I have no doubt that what you have said is true (that 'faith', 'belief', and 'trust' in the NT mean EXACTLY the same thing) then why did the translators use these three different words in different situations? If they mean the same thing then why not just pick one and go with that word over the other two?

Some translations-- the more literal ones-- do use the same word every time a particular Greek word occurs. But most Bibles, such as the King James Version, never attempted such consistency, because the translators were also interested in the way the translation sounds and looks.

But could you give examples of what you mean by "three different words in different situations"?

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Also, in modern common usage the three words in question are used in different ways and have different meanings. This DOES affect the way people today read and understand the verse in question, because they automatically believe that faith has a different meaning than trust, even if (as you say) these words actually mean the same thing. Do you see my point?

Yes, I do see your point. I think that if people understand them as meaning widely differently things, then it would be necessary to use a particular word that is closest to the meaning of the word used in the context.

I'm not convinced that people see "faith" and "trust" or "firm confidence" or "reliance" as meaning very different things. Do you believe they do?

[Now this is the kind of discussion I LOVE.]

Actually, John, I do believe people view these words differently, and that is based on how it is used in Hebrews:

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Heb.11:1.

One dictionary definition is: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Yet there is a difference between conviction and preference. Conviction is based on proof, preference is based on faith. Belief based on 'faith' then is of necessity different that belief based on facts. Did Jesus KNOW who His real (Heavenly) Father was, or did He just make a good guess? According to Jesus He knew without a single doubt. If we are to become like Jesus in all respects would this then not be our goal; in which case we must move from belief based in 'faith' to belief based in 'trust', which comes from knowing the facts. I am not saying that there is no place for faith, that is where we all begin. But if we stay there then we will never grow in our knowledge and understanding of who Jesus is and what He wants us to do, and we will never gain the wisdom that comes from that knowledge and understanding.

[hfsturges]

Hi, All,

Revelation 14:12 speaks of the "faith OF Jesus" in the KJV. Comparing with other translations, the words OF and IN come out about even. As I look at it, Faith IN Jesus is a given -- if you have any faith at all, it is IN Jesus. Faith OF Jesus is a huge challenge, and one that we all must have as the time of trouble comes upon us.

The faith OF Jesus: In Gethsemane Jesus faced a situation that you and I have never had to face.

If He went ahead to the trial and the crucifixion there was no guarantee that He would be successful. No guarantee that He would be resurrected. It was a terrible choice.

If He did not go ahead, the whole human race was lost. The government of God would be threatened as Satan would say, "the law cannot be kept. Grace is not sufficient to save. I have a better way!"

Then He remembered: "Thou art My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased." He remembered the pleasant hours in prayer with the Father. He remembered the needs and the appreciation of the people who had been healed, and who would be lost if He failed.

In faith in a Father and His Love, He chose to go ahead. His faith was stretched to the uttermost, but he gained the victory, and finally said, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit."

[John317]

[John317]

...Belief based on 'faith' then is of necessity different that belief based on facts.

But the Bible gives no evidence for this. Both faith and trust are based on evidence. God provides evidence for that which He requires us to believe. He doesn't demand that people use "blind faith." That is really the purpose of the Bible: it gives us the evidence that God is trust-worthy and loves us. God doesn't merely make a claim to be worthy of our trust and to love us; rather, God demonstrates it over a long period of time.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Did Jesus KNOW who His real (Heavenly) Father was, or did He just make a good guess? According to Jesus He knew without a single doubt.

Yes, it is certainly true that Jesus was not guessing but that He knew who His heavenly Father is. He knew this without a single doubt.

Yet that is not where Christ's faith was tested. Christ's faith was tested in the fact that He had to rely completely on His Father moment by moment for everything, including His knowledge and wisdom. He didn't know ahead of time where God would lead Him. It is why Jesus prayed so often and so earnestly.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

If we are to become like Jesus in all respects would this then not be our goal; in which case we must move from belief based in 'faith' to belief based in 'trust', which comes from knowing the facts.

You may have a point that some people are confused about the meaning of "faith" and "trust," but I don't see where you get the notion that belief based on faith is different from belief based on trust. Both faith and trust result from knowing facts that give one confidence.

If I ask someone whether they trust their dad, and then I ask them if they have faith in their dad, I believe they will see the question as being one and the same. In any case, when Jesus said, "Have faith in God," He was saying "put your complete trust in God," wasn't He?

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

I am not saying that there is no place for faith, that is where we all begin. But if we stay there then we will never grow in our knowledge and understanding of who Jesus is and what He wants us to do, and we will never gain the wisdom that comes from that knowledge and understanding.

The Bible teaches that salvation begins with faith/trust and leads on to ever greater faith/trust. It requires total reliance upon God and Christ-- reliance based on our experience and knowledge of God.

[Musicman1228]

As I said, John, I am not questioning your interpretation of the Biblical usage of 'faith' and 'trust'; I am only pointing out that people today in common usage view the words differently. I admire and concur with your very last sentence; our development of 'faith' or 'trust' is totally predicated on our experience and knowledge of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[ClubV12]

hfsturges, your excellent post and comments concerning Gethsemane prompted me to start a new thread on the subject in Theology Townhall.

I don't have a degree of any kind in religion, never schooled in it, sometimes the words and terms folks use to describe the christian walk go over my head.

But I understand it enough to know it's wonderful! :)

[skyblue888]

Eph.4:5 says that "there is one faith". Galatians 5:6 says that it is "the faith that works by love." This, then, must be "the faith of Jesus." Rev.14:12. Working by love, it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God for "Love is the fulfilment of the law." Rom.13:10; Rev.14:12.

Now notice what this statement says. "It is the Holy Spirit in the heart that works by love and purifies the soul." E.G. White, 4 B.C.1189.

So Christ through the Holy Spirit is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Heb.12:2.

And a measure of that faith (Holy Spirit) the Lord has dealt to every man born into this world. Rom.12:3.

Right?

sky

[Guest]

Right.

[skyblue888]

:)

And "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith (Holy Spirit working in your hearts by love; Rom.5:5) grows exceedingly and the love of everyone of you all toward each other abounds," (2 Thess.1:3) and thus "your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." Rom.1:8.

sky :)

[Ron Amnsn]

You all are talking about faith as if it was something that happens primarily in your head or heart. In Hebrew and Greek faith also includes the concept of being faithful or "faithing", which is the necessary action component that goes along with the mental part. The "faith of Jesus" was what he lived, not something that existed only internally.

The faith of Jesus led him to be faithful to the instructions of God, including those written by Moses in the Old Testament scriptures. By contrast, most of the folks on this forum speak of God's Old Testament instructions as if they were something to be disdained, something that we are better off without. There seems to be a huge disconnect between the faith of Jesus and what is generally discussed here.

[Guest]

You all are talking about faith as if it was something that happens primarily in your head or heart. In Hebrew and Greek faith also includes the concept of being faithful or "faithing", which is the necessary action component that goes along with the mental part. The "faith of Jesus" was what he lived, not something that existed only internally.

The faith of Jesus led him to be faithful to the instructions of God, including those written by Moses in the Old Testament scriptures.

Now that's a fact!

[skyblue888]

That faith (Spirit of faith) in Adam led him to trust in the merits of a Saviour to come. "Faithfully did he repent of his sins and trust in the merits of the promised Saviour." G.C.315.

"Through the sacrifices and offerings brought to the earthly sanctuary, the children of Israel were to lay hold of the merits of a Saviour to come." Spiritual Gifts, Vol.1, p.161.

This is the faith (Spirit of faith) that leads us to trust in the merits of a Saviour who has come and who is, before the Father, pleading them, His divine merits, in our behalf.

This faith works by love for as we rest in the merits of Christ for our acceptance with God the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts and the love of God, the same love that was in the heart of Jesus, is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God.

In 1888, the people were invited to lay hold by faith of the merits of the blood that is of value beyond estimate in order for Christ's righteousness to be brought into the life and "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God," and "the life of God in the soul is man's only hope." Mount of Blessing,18; Ministry of Healing,115.

So the faith that lays right hold of the merits of Christ is the faith of God's faithful in all ages of the world.

sky

[Musicman1228]

You all are talking about faith as if it was something that happens primarily in your head or heart. In Hebrew and Greek faith also includes the concept of being faithful or "faithing", which is the necessary action component that goes along with the mental part. The "faith of Jesus" was what he lived, not something that existed only internally.

The faith of Jesus led him to be faithful to the instructions of God, including those written by Moses in the Old Testament scriptures. By contrast, most of the folks on this forum speak of God's Old Testament instructions as if they were something to be disdained, something that we are better off without. There seems to be a huge disconnect between the faith of Jesus and what is generally discussed here.

Very well put.

Trust is the 'active' form of faith, as you have so well pointed out. The NT gospel as defined by most Christians allows 'faith' to take whatever form the 'born again' Christian decides. For these people the active form of 'faith' ends when the individual accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. After that all they have to do is rely on the 'merits' of Jesus Christ, and the belief that what the do (either good or bad) has no affect on their ultimate salvation.

This, of course and as you have pointed out, is NOT what Jesus taught, and can be summed up in one verse:

"And the Dragon was angry with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of Her offspring, those that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and hold to the TESTIMONY OF JESUS (Rev.12:17).

[John317]

... The NT gospel as defined by most Christians allows 'faith' to take whatever form the 'born again' Christian decides. For these people the active form of 'faith' ends when the individual accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. After that all they have to do is rely on the 'merits' of Jesus Christ, and the belief that what the do (either good or bad) has no affect on their ultimate salvation.

This, of course and as you have pointed out, is NOT what Jesus taught...

Neither is it the faith that the NT teaches. That sort of "faith" is not taught anywhere in the entire Bible. The faith you describe above is a perversion of genuine faith.