Reformation Theology

[Truth Files]

The reformers of the dark ages rebelled against the Roman "church" and returned to the Bible for truth, but they did not understand the prophetic scriptures and attempted to force fit prevalent conditions of their day into the visions of the Bible prophets

Many still cling to some or all of these assumptions and this has opened up the prophetic scriptures for all sorts of off course manipulations and related false doctrines contrived by various movements of professing christianity

Here are the significant speculative assumptions and my related comments:

Events of last 2000 years on the earth between the Lord's first and second advent are recorded in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets

>There is nothing recorded in the breach of the visions between the end of the 69th week [about 33 A.D.] of the 70 weeks of years [490 prophetic years] decreed for Israel and the beginning of the 70th week [7 prophetic years]

The ancient Roman Empire is recorded in the visions and it will be revived at the time of the end [most suggest Europe]

>Ancient Rome is recorded in the N.T. as a matter of historical fact, but not in the visions of the Bible prophets .... the existence of this ancient empire lies in the breach and it will not be revived at the time of the end

The people of the "prince who shall come" in Daniel 9 were the Romans in 70 A.D.

>These will be the followers of the beast [in the little horn] at the time of the end .... not Romans in the first century

The first "he" in Daniel 9:27 is the other prince [the "antichrist]

>It is the Lord who will confirm the covenant with Israel by meeting the 6 objectives stated in Daniel 9:24 for a believing remnant of the nation during the 70th week .... the beast [in the little horn] is the second "he"

The antichrist will rise out of Europe

>The beast [in the little horn] is called the "Assyrian" in the visions and he will rise out of the northern Middle East [Tigris/Euphrates River basin]

The "antichrist" is the Pope

>The Pope is not recorded in any vision of the Bible prophets, but this position has and does lead a large sector of apostate professing christianity

The "antichrist" will claim to be Jesus Christ

>The beast [in the little horn] will not claim to be Jesus Christ, but will be openly "against" the Lord and will blaspheme Him

The 10 kings are Europeans or a global government [NWO]

>The 10 kings who unite with the beast are of Middle Eastern origin .... and there will be no new world order, but extreme disorder is scheduled for the time of the end

A peace treaty of 7 years will be made by the "antichrist" between Israel and the nation's enemies

>The covenant confirmed in the context of Daniel 9 is not a peace treaty and neither does the "antichrist" destroy by using a vailed "peace" agreement .... he will be a war monger from the get go and will use "peace" as a rational for killing billions who will not submit to him

A tribulation temple will be rebuilt for the Lord

>There will be no tribulation temple of the Lord's on the temple mount during the period, there are no instructions to build one in scripture, and the beast in the little horn will sit in a temple of "his" god .... this edifice is on the mount today

The temple of Revelation 11:1 is on the earth during the tribulation period

>This is a reference to the Lord's temple in heaven .... not one on the top of the temple mount in Jerusalem

The removal of believers at the "rapture" is the same as the Lord standing aside [taken out of the way] to allow for the "antichrist" to be revealed

>The Lord Himself is the restrainer of satanic contrivance, not the church [Daniel 10]

Revelation 14:14 is a resurrection of believers

>This is a harvest of the grapes of unbelievers who will be cut, gathered, and trampled in the winepress of the Lord's indignation at Armageddon

The passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are a focus upon the church

>These projected end time events are all about national Israel during the 70th week decreed for the nation .... not the church

Daniel's and the other prophets' visions include the church

>The church is not included in any of the visions of the Bible prophets .... only national Israel and the nations are presented

Ezekiel 38, 39 is a war before the end of the tribulation [or after the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth] period and is not the battle of Armageddon

>Ezekiel's vision has two parts; the invasion of Israel at the middle of the 70th week decreed for the nation .... and the ensuing battle of Armageddon 1260 days [42 months] later

Gog is a Russian

>The Lord is addressing satan [gog] and modern Russia is not in this vision .... "rosh" means "head" or "chief" and is not a reference to Russia .... the land of Magog and associated post flood settlements were all northern Middle Eastern the same as today .... this land has been ruled by many different inhabitors and they are the adherents of Islam today

John's call to "come up" is the "rapture" of the church

>John's spirit was taken into the future [time travel] and to heaven to be shown the time of the end which is still pending .... he was then returned to Patmos where he died in prison .... his experience was not the "rapture" of the church

The church is not seen in Revelation after chapter 3

>The church of today of both those asleep and living at the time are seen in heaven with the Lord just before and during the tribulation period

The seals of the scroll are actual sequential events of the tribulation period

>These seals are portents of the actual events of the coming tribulation period and they must all be removed before the scroll of the actual events can open .... the tribulations on the earth begin in chapter 8

The symbol of the white horse of the first seal is the "antichrist"

>The symbol in this portent represents the Lord and His salvation offer which will continue to be operative [to conquer] during the tribulation period

The first beast of Revelation is a world government system

>This beast is the fallen angelic Abaddon-Apollyon who rules human kingdoms on the earth for satan .... human government systems do not go into and come out of the abyss

The first beast of Revelation is a resurrected human

>Abaddon-Apollyon will possess a human [the little horn of Daniel's visions], but the human little horn [king] will not be a resurrected human .... it is this beast who will be released [healed] from his prison in the abyss to rule again during the coming tribulation period

MBG [the "woman"] is the RCC

>Mystery Babylon the Great is symbolic of all of lost humanity past, present, and future .... not just the RCC .... apostate human religions are just a part of the "woman's" intransigent make up .... her seductions are legion and activated by the fallen condition of lost humanity

The Lord's two tribulation prophets [Enoch and Elijah] serve during the first 1260 days

>These two Israelite prophets will serve during the last 1260 days of the 70th week decreed for Israel during the occupation of Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount by the beast and his followers .... and they will not be Enoch and Elijah .... they will be mortal humans who will be killed and resurrected at the end of their service

The 24 elders and the great multitude seen in Revelation are the martyrs of the tribulation period

>These will not be martyred during the tribulation period and they are immortals who will be dwelling in heaven and are worshiping around the throne .... the martyrs of the tribulation period are those who will become believers during the period and they are seen under the alter; and they must all wait until the end of the tribulation period for their resurrection

The 200 million of Revelation 9 are human armies

>The four principal angels and their armies are all fallen angelics who will be released upon the earth to do satan's bidding during the tribulation period

Satan and the first beast of Revelation are the same entity

>Satan and this beast are not the same entities [Revelation 19:19-20; 20:1-3; 20:7-10]

[Lysimachus]

Truth Files,

Instead of creating new topics in such rapid succession, why not deal with the arguments presented to you in other threads first? Creating new threads does not vindicate your case one bit. I have already dealt with 80% of your content above in the 70 x 7 thread.

[Truth Files]

I already know your SDA theology and do not buy it Lys .... this you already know

Your view of the prophetic scriptures and mine are like oil and water .... no mixing

There just is no value in argumentation with you in my opinion

I think you are only interested in debate .... I am not

Our objectives are very different

I am here to share information, and not to vindicate any case as you state

.... and I did not ask you to "deal" with any of my content on the 70 x 7 thread

I would suggest that if you do not like my topics that you should simply ignore them

Trolling my posts with criticism will not receive a return, but I will generally respond to reasonable statements and questions

Keep this one thing in mind .... you have the right to post your views on a public forum, and so do I

We will not make a contest out of it

I do not troll the postings of others with the objective of discounting their views in order to prove mine, and I do not dialogue with those who do

[Lysimachus]

I already know your SDA theology and do not buy it Lys .... this you already know

Your view of the prophetic scriptures and mine are like oil and water .... no mixing

There just is no value in argumentation with you in my opinion

I think you are only interested in debate .... I am not

Our objectives are very different

I am here to share information, and not to vindicate any case as you state

.... and I did not ask you to "deal" with any of my content on the 70 x 7 thread

I would suggest that if you do not like my topics that you should simply ignore them

Trolling my posts with criticism will not receive a return, but I will generally respond to reasonable statements and questions

Keep this one thing in mind .... you have the right to post your views on a public forum, and so do I

We will not make a contest out of it

I do not troll the postings of others with the objective of discounting their views in order to prove mine, and I do not dialogue with those who do

Trolling may not be the exact definition of the things you are doing, but you may very well be accused of "spamming". You have come to an Adventist forum to advertise your views. And while I do not have a problem with that per say, you should always expect the members of a forum with opposing theological convictions to challenge your views, and you are obliged to respond to their challenges if you do not want to be labeled a spammer. Otherwise, if you ignore their Biblical arguments they have posted, it is not difficult to categorize you as a "trolling spammer".

I have engaged in public forums where I felt myself an uninvited guest. But the difference was, after they challenged my views, I responded.

You are not going to gain any converts if you do not deal with the challenges posed at you. So what makes you feel you are accomplishing anything?

You are very much welcome here, don't get me wrong. But we do expect you to grapple with the Biblical arguments and theological positions held by the members of a forum.

Here is a website I recommend for you:

http://www.HearingTheTruth.org

There are 2 sections to that website:

1. Radio Shows by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris. I encourage you to listen to the radio show entitled "Futurism 1 and Futurism 2", and "The Israel of God" series.

2. Their book. "Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion". 12 chapters, 550 pages all online for free. The most thorough refutation to all 4 pillars that hold up your theological and eschatological construct of end-time events.

[Truth Files]

"You are not going to gain any converts"

>Not my objective

>And I also know all of the arguments against dispensational exegesis

.... I don't by them either

[Lysimachus]

"You are not going to gain any converts"

>Not my objective

>And I also know all of the arguments against dispensational exegesis

.... I don't by them either

Are you saying you are not a dispensationalist?

[Truth Files]

I said I know all of the arguments against dispensational exegesis

Those that are doing this today have acquired the historical/allegorical method of interpretation of scriptural exegesis presented by Augustine and Oriegen .... the early preterists of the RCC

The methodology is one that allows for the convenience of picking and choosing between what is literal and what is allegory when interpreting the prophetic scriptures

Today's presenters have dressed this idea up in a new package and it is coming from a broad spectrum of unlikely contenders, many who have traditionally been at each others throats over proprietary "church" doctrine

I see it being peddled across denominational boundaries from the major divisions to the "christian" cults .... the list is long and the practice is growing exponentially

Is there a common source feeding this aberrant teaching among those who are divided and yet profess to be christian? .... I would say so

[Guest]

Truth Files,

Instead of creating new topics in such rapid succession, why not deal with the arguments presented to you in other threads first? Creating new threads does not vindicate your case one bit. I have already dealt with 80% of your content above in the 70 x 7 thread.

I think maybe it's easier for him just to move on...

[Lysimachus]

I said I know all of the arguments against dispensational exegesis

Those that are doing this today have acquired the historical/allegorical method of interpretation of scriptural exegesis presented by Augustine and Oriegen .... the early preterists of the RCC

The methodology is one that allows for the convenience of picking and choosing between what is literal and what is allegory when interpreting the prophetic scriptures

Todays presenters have dressed this idea up in a new package and it is coming from a broad spectrum of unlikely contenders, many who have traditionally been at each others throats over proprietary "church" doctrine

I see it being peddled across denominational boundaries from the major divisions to the "christian" cults .... the list is long and the practice is growing exponentially

Is there a common source feeding this aberrant teaching among those who are divided and yet profess to be christian? .... I would say so

[Truth Files]

Your body of description above is quite presumptive and does not fit my views of the Lord's Word in many ways, and as I continue to post on this forum it will be evident .... but you will not like it because of your impoundment in SDA theology

And a number of your criticisms above, which seen to be against the teaching of Hal Lindsey and others like him, are those that I would agree with, but most likely for different reasons

.... the OP has a number of them already stated, but I am going to elaborate in future threads

Your list of SDA proponents are not on the chart in my opinion because the foundational views held are contrived and extra-Biblical in my opinion

[Lysimachus]

I said I know all of the arguments against dispensational exegesis

Those that are doing this today have acquired the historical/allegorical method of interpretation of scriptural exegesis presented by Augustine and Oriegen .... the early preterists of the RCC

The methodology is one that allows for the convenience of picking and choosing between what is literal and what is allegory when interpreting the prophetic scriptures

Today's presenters have dressed this idea up in a new package and it is coming from a broad spectrum of unlikely contenders, many who have traditionally been at each others throats over proprietary "church" doctrine

I see it being peddled across denominational boundaries from the major divisions to the "christian" cults .... the list is long and the practice is growing exponentially

Is there a common source feeding this aberrant teaching among those who are divided and yet profess to be christian? .... I would say so

[Truth Files]

Your last example above is a total hoax put forth by modern day preterists and post-tribulation teachers

I will be posting a thread on this very subject just for you

[Dr. Rich]

Who wants to read a whole book on a thread in this blog? I sure don't! Stephen might think this is a good place to write and post his book. From now on I doubt if I will even read anymore of what Stephen posts.