God or Self, Which Will It Be?

[teresaq]

This past year has been one of the most horrible of my life, yet it has raised a question as I've sought the Lord more deeply.

On this board I would ask,

Is it more important to defend one's particular personal beliefs,

Is it more important to defend the SDA church,

Is it more important to defend the bible,

Is it more important to defend Ellen White,

than it is to seek our opponent's salvation?

Which is more important to God? That we are offensively or insultingly defending something "dear" to us, or that we care about whoever who is opposing us, as did Jesus?

My particular struggle isn't the above as much anymore, but learning to love and work for the highly offensive. To let go of protecting or defending myself.

What kind of board would this be if we stopped insulting, and deliberately misrepresenting those with different views than we have? I'm speaking to those of us who claim to be SDAs not the non-SDAs. What if we tried to understand what they were saying not in order to agree with them, but in an effort to really understand?

[cardw]

I think all of us have to face that our sacred cows are eventually melted down.

I believe a lot of conflict is not personal but based on facing the fact that most of life is based on illusions and things we make up in our own minds.

It is scary to face the unknown, but the fact that the world doesn't actually fall apart should inform us that fear isn't really all that useful. Even if the world falls apart fear isn't going to slow it down.

People who are able to engage in the moment tend to be the most happy. So much of Christian belief is about fear of the future. A future that cannot be verified. So sacred books and cherished traditions tend to substitute for facing life head on.

Every birth involves some pain, but the process prepares us to engage in the next phase. And when I look back, much of what used to cause me pain and fear seems rather silly now.

[teresaq]

Very true. I have had to give up a couple of beliefs and wow was it a struggle!!

To the board, if an individual comes over "trashing" our beliefs, how do we know if they honestly believe what they are saying, or are deliberately "lying"?

[teresaq]

"Freedom of conscience" would fit in with this subject I believe. How do we courteously allow others to believe drastically different than we do, even when we see it as the most aberrant heresy?

[Overaged]

Your question about defending our own beliefs is an excellent one. I go with the example of Jesus - sometimes, it is actually not best to defend your beliefs.

[teresaq]

Very true. Just allow the other to be "in error" and walk away. I think Jesus did that quite often. I don't believe we see Him very often walking up to people and informing them on how wrong they were, or the apostles.

He went somewhere, started talking and the people congregated. When He "corrected" it was after someone had confronted Him.

[Gail]

Jesus was so cool in that He transcended error instead of getting defensive. In doing so He won hearts.

I had a great conversation with Inga at Camp (she's a member here). I told her that I have trouble getting the "love" part down pat, let alone the commandments, etc.

I recently read a blurb that said that whenever we break the 10 Commandments we hurt both ourselves and someone else. I've been thinking about that take a lot in the last few days.

As I have mentioned before, the picture is bigger than a set of rules.

[teresaq]

OK, I started this on Tom's forum so can't use the quote box. But I do like the idea in spite of that minor hindrance.

Yes Jesus won many hearts-and still got killed by hate for "transcending error". But I still like the idea...

I think the "love" part is the 10c. But oh, I do understand what you are saying! Come slap me and oh how I want to defend myself! And prevent it from happening again! I have gotten to the point where I don't want to hurt someone as in vengence, but it is a struggle not to answer in anger. This last year surprised me tho because regardless of what was going on in my mind what came out my mouth was calm and rational.

I vaguely remember hearing that also. I've been watching to see how that is true, how do I hurt myself when I break one of the 10c. I think one is peace skedaddles, another is my conscience becomes a little deader to that still, small voice....

Nice thoughts, thank you. :)

[Overaged]

Gail I just caught myself in time BEFORE TOM DID that I has used the quote box, but the likes are for everything in your last post.

[Overaged]

I still like the idea too.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Wait a minute. Jesus wasn't always a humble, milquetoast to everyone. He called Peter Satan and wasn't immune to putting the Pharisees in their place. This idea of always needing to be charming and beatitudical [new word] to everyone you meet was NOT Christ's way. At least, that is *not* how I read it in the Bible..

okay...now you can throw rocks at me..

[Overaged]

Rather than throw "rocks" at you, or "internet rotten tomatoes," I would like to commend you for that new word...

You are right - Jesus used some pretty aggressive terminology for His day...dogs, whoremongers, etc. I tend to think that He knows better than us when it's needed.

[Bravus]

Hmm, I think if you look closely you'll find Jesus comforted the afflicted and afflicted the comfortable. Look closely at who he used those tough words on, and who he was gentle with...

[Overaged]

I think that's another good point to add Bravus. Jesus sees it and says it like it is

[teresaq]

rw, your post brings up a good point. We tend to behave like the god we picture. I know my picture was of an angry god...which I can go into sometime as my memory comes back on that.

Regarding humility, it would be good to investigate just what our definition and picture is of that. It would be nice if we could do that without getting preachy/teachy, aka "correcting", with each other, rather share what our picture is, how we understand it.

[fccool]

Rudywoofs,

I certainly think there's a misconception as far as Jesus's behavior was rather rough. But, it was not simply lashing out on people who were just "doing their thing".

There's a reason why I call such behavior consistent with God's love.

Pharisees were binding people in unnecessary burden for purpose of self-gain. These people were exploiting other. Consider what you do to people who would intentionally seek to exploit your kids. They don't do it unintentionally. They know what they are doing, and the tools that they are using.

Love acts on behalf of people and protects them from harm. It's not inconsistent idea. Jesus was not doing it for the purpose of "being right". He did it, so people would break free from the idea of bunch of "holy people" telling them how to live, while at the same time ignored everything that "it was about".

In a sense, Jesus made a certain parallels ... I.E. "wolves and vipers" for a reason. You would not hesitate to kick a snake that was slithering towards your child. At the very least you could tell your child to stay away from the snake.

The point is that it does take love to protect people who you love from harm, and love does take the priority over people who seek to purposefully abuse and exploit trust and love of other.

So, going back to my original point... the difference between us and God is deeper understanding of personal being. Jesus did not scold Zacchaeus, for example. He reached out to him, and the love worked in "fixing way".

In case of these particular Pharisees, they exploited love, so it does not fix them. They set it out to be a point of life to exploit trust and love of other for self-gain, and to destroy any competition/opposition.

Unfortunately, we can't know for sure who is who in such context, that's why I choose to trust people unless they give me reasons not to by showing some of the above-described qualities. In which case, our love should be on behalf of people who they abuse.

[teresaq]

Thanks fccool. I think that was really helpful...at least for me. :)

[Gail]

I like it, too! And thanks also to Bravus for his insight :)

[teresaq]

yes, I forgot about your post, Bravus, till Gail reminded me. I especially liked the first sentence. :)