Question - Holy Spirit as an omniscient being (Matt. 24:36)

[John317]

Now, I would have preferred it had you just said this (or the appropriate similar summary) to begin with. Instead you chose to present a small bible study, and make a showmanship effort of it...

You spend too much time off-topic telling people what you think about how they wrote their posts and how they answered you. You have the gall to tell people what you'd prefer them to do and how you're disappointed in them, etc. At the same time you say that other people are "dominating." Give me a break, Qinael.

You need to stay focussed on the topic and discuss evidence instead of personalities. You also need to stop talking about people's motives and what you think they're thinking. You're not very good at it. You've been wrong so far in our exchanges about 100%.

[Light Fox]

John,

Your replies are noted.

As I've said that I would be willing to assist you with questions about my beliefs, and you've asked what my belief, in fact, is regarding the Spirit and it's relation to the Father, I will summarize to the best of my ability.

The Father and the Son are distinct and separate personages, each with their own individuality, minds, cognizance, and whatever other terms may be applied to denote an intelligent being. They are two.

Nonetheless, we are told they are are "One." We are not left in the dark as to how this is so:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. [...] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

The way in which the apostles were one was by a shared Spirit. That Spirit manifests itself in the characters of those who possess it; love, joy, peace, etc. In the same way, the Father and the Son are "one" in that they share this same Spirit - a Spirit which is holy - between the two of them.

Man has a spirit, and man is created in the image of God. Elijah's spirit was given in a double measure to Elisha, Job's spirit was troubled, David's spirit was broken, etc. None of these describes a "second Elijah" or "second David;" it spoke to the attributes, the essence of the man whose spirit it was. As 2 Corinthians says, who knows the things of a man except the spirit of man be in him.

The Spirit of God is similar in that it is the presence, the character, the essence, the personality, the attributes of the Father and Son. It is shared between them, and given freely to the redeemed, as also mentioned in 2 Corinthians and elsewhere. It is by the Spirit that the Father and Son are "one" - one in character, one in purpose, and this is why the Son was the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels of the Father. They share a spirit, and that spirit is holy.

There are, obviously, differences between God's Spirit and man's spirit - just as man being in the image of God does not make him the very God. The Spirit of God may be sent, withdrawn, breathed out, given, taken, and sent at the will of the Father and Son. None of this can be done by a man with his spirit.

It is their presence, their means of dwelling in the hearts of men without the "possession" that would occur should an intelligent spiritual being otherwise take up residence inside of a man. The Spirit does not force or eclipse the will because the Spirit does not have a will of it's own; it is the influence and abiding presence of the Father and Son, the means of their unity with each other and the means of the redeemed's unity with each other.

This is as best as I can articulate the matter, and I dare not try to be more specific; the simple fact is that the details of how the Spirit functions are, as has been said, "a mystery." Nonetheless, this does not leave us without the ability to understand the basic elements of it from the Word.

The Scriptures record a "trio," "three heavenly powers," and a variety of other terms that I am sure you are familiar with. It is apparent, then, that the Spirit is not the same as the Father or the Son to the extent that they may be used interchangeably, as though "Holy Spirit" is just another term for the Father who is also spirit. The Father does not send and take away Himself.

At the same time, there is also another difference apparent. The Father and Son share attributes and qualities that the Spirit is never said to have. The Spirit speaks, but only through an agent. The Spirit has no name given to it, has no throne, is not prayed to, but prayed for; is not spoken to, but heard from; and the list may go on. As Christ's representative - as His very essence and characteristics, His spirit - it may be said it is a "person" in that it is the personality of the Father and Son, bringing their presence into the heart.

While the Scriptures teach that the Spirit of God is on a much higher, grander, more Divine level than the spirit of man, I do not find them to teach that it is somehow also an intelligent being unto itself, a "third person" of the Godhead as the word "person" is commonly understood in today's terms. If it is to be understood as an intelligent Divine being, it seems to have several issues with the concept of co-equality; a co-equal being that is treated, essentially, as a nameless, second-order member of the Godhead with no throne, no personal appearance in vision beyond objects like flames and doves, the inability to forgive sins against itself, is breathed out, is given and taken and otherwise referred to as an inanimate, and various other incongruities. The Son humbled Himself; there is no recorded reason why the Spirit would be, if co-equal from eternity, in such an extremely lesser role than even the Son.

As I understand the Scriptures to read on the matter, the Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of God - there is a reason it is referred to in this way, and it's no necessarily great mystery. My spirit is who I am; God's Spirit is who He is. He invites us to take part in this Spirit, and represents Himself in all places by it.

[teresaq]

Wow! I disagree in some ways. I do believe the HS to be a distinct person in some sense but I have never heard "the other's side" put together so understandably. I wish I could engage more, but I just don't have the time for what could ensue.

I would love to share my understanding even tho we may part still disagreeing. :)

[Light Fox]

Hi Terasaq,

Thanks for the reply. I can certainly understand the hesitancy based on "what could ensue." I would be interested in your offer of sharing your understanding, however. I did open the thread to receive an answer to a question, after all.

I also think that I should clarify something; you said:

Wow! I disagree in some ways. I do believe the HS to be a distinct person in some sense[...]

Now, it might not be what you meant, but I want to clarify that I don't disagree with that wording. I agree that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person "in some sense" - there was a reason Mrs. White used the term "person" on rare occasion after all. There's obviously more to it than just a "force," or solely the "characteristics," as it can be "detached" to some extent in order to be sent and withdrawn as a means of the presence of the Father and Son. Again, how exactly this works is a mystery we are not given to fully understand.

What I hoped to convey was that I simply don't see in the Scriptures that the "some sense" involved is the same as the Father and Son; that is, as a separately intelligent "co-equal, co-eternal" being as it's often said. But I would certainly agree that in some sense, the term can be applied, and has been applied in Inspired Writings.

[teresaq]

Hi Terasaq,

I also think that I should clarify something; you said:

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Wow! I disagree in some ways. I do believe the HS to be a distinct person in some sense[...]

Now, it might not be what you meant, but I want to clarify that I don't disagree with that wording. I agree that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person "in some sense" - there was a reason Mrs. White used the term "person" on rare occasion after all. There's obviously more to it than just a "force," or solely the "characteristics," as it can be "detached" to some extent in order to be sent and withdrawn as a means of the presence of the Father and Son. Again, how exactly this works is a mystery we are not given to fully understand.

What I hoped to convey was that I simply don't see in the Scriptures that the "some sense" involved is the same as the Father and Son; that is, as a separately intelligent "co-equal, co-eternal" being as it's often said. But I would certainly agree that in some sense, the term can be applied, and has been applied in Inspired Writings.

[Light Fox]

Hi Terasaq,

Thanks for your input. I've heard the idea once or twice before that the reason for the silence regarding the Spirit in the Scriptures is due to its humility, and it's never really "clicked" for me.

Perhaps you can help me understand your view on that, however. Would you say that the Spirit is "more humble" than the Father or the Son, or that it's humility is of a different nature, or something else? The reason I ask is that the Father and Son do reflect praise to each other, but they also receive it. It seems that for the Spirit to be entirely missing from that and various other places, it would have to have either a different level or different type of humility than the Father and Son.

That raises a problem for me, because I obviously don't think the Father or the Son are in any way lacking in perfect and absolute humility; I don't expect that you think they are lacking either. At the same time, we still see them in all the ways and places we do in the Scriptures; they don't have anonymity, the way the Spirit seems to.

So, I'm not sure how that would be reconciled. What is your understanding of how that fits together? I suppose one possible answer would be that the Scriptures say that knowledge of the Father and the Son is eternal life, not knowledge of the Spirit - but that would raise another question for me, in that I don't see how if it is a person in the same sense, knowing it would not be a requisite of eternal life alongside the others. I'm interested in what your thoughts are on this.

[teresaq]

First, I am not trying to change your mind on the HS. If God through Ellen White didn't have a problem with the views of our pioneers then why should I? I'm also not sure that we can know for absolute sure, this side of eternity, exactly about Father, Son and HS. I also believe that we should be more worried about John 17 then about defining them.

On the other hand I do feel I have to speak up at times on certain aspects presented that could be potentially harmful to us in the long run. If no one wants to hear it, well....

Ok. I don't consciously remembering anyone else state similar but that doesn't mean I didn't. No, I don't believe the HS is more humble...I do enjoy this topic because it is causing thoughts to form.

The way I understand it is that the Son's main purpose in coming was to show us the Father, not Himself. (Something AT Jones said about self not showing in Christ.) As for receiving praise, there was a time when I thought they were serious ego-maniacs. So very slowly I have come to realize that we need to give the praise-it changes us.

Your last paragraph, good point. It bothers me when I hear people praying to the HS...and to Jesus. Our instruction was to pray to the Father in the name (character, power, authority )of Jesus. I can see talking to Jesus, but too often it seems to me that we ignore the Father most of the time when Jesus whole life was dedicated to putting our hand in the hand of the Father. I'm trying to get that relationship with the Father now and it is most definitely off-and-on so far.

Jesus came to show us what the Father was like, which brings these texts to mind and has caused me to wonder...

Quote:

Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

...

Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not...

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

the people were afraid of God then, and we still feel distanced from God, so Jesus came as man to woo us to the Father.

I'm tired and need to go to bed. If there is anything more that needs to be said I will do it later.

[Truth Files]

Notice the Lord's consistency in describing Himself .... He is all three .... God, the Son [human], and Spirit .... all interconnected

Revelation

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

John 14

14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Revelation

1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

His ultimate objective with regard to those that follow and believe in Him

1Corinthians

15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[John317]

....the Spirit does not have a will of it's own; it is the influence and abiding presence of the Father and Son, the means of their unity with each other and the means of the redeemed's unity with each other.

But doesn't the Bible shows us that the Holy Spirit has a will of His (or Its) own?

What about 1 Cor. 12: 11 which specifically refer to the Spirit's "will"?

1 Cor. 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing [distributing the spiritual gifts] to every man severally as he will.

Doesn't the above verse show clearly the self-determining will of the Holy Spirit?

Also:

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away.

13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Acts 16:6, 7-- Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

Or:

Matt. 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Finally, doesn't Luke 3: 21-22 show clearly that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son?

[John317]

Notice the Lord's consistency in describing Himself .... He is all three .... God, the Son [human], and Spirit .... all interconnected

Do you mean that you believe Christ is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

Are these three names, then, referring to only one divine Person?

[Truth Files]

This is the way in which the Lord describes Himself in scripture

Not really hard to understand, but certainly a very different being than the human

[John317]

The Spirit speaks, but only through an agent.

What agent was the Holy Spirit speaking through, in the following verses:

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Acts 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

He was speaking directly to people, wasn't He?

[John317]

The Spirit has no name given to it, ...

Yes, but is this proof that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct, intelligent, divine person?

Spirits belonging to Satan also don't have names given to them. They are merely called "evil spirits" or "demons," yet they are definitely supernational, highly intelligent beings.

In fact, isn't the work and role of the Holy Spirit in the work of Redemption consistent with the anonymous character of the Holy Spirit as portrayed in Scripture?

Why? Because it is not His work to point to Himself but to Christ.

Why? Because it was Christ-- NOT the Spirit--- who did the will of the Father for the purpose of living and dying as a human being for the salvation of fallen, lost humanity. Christ alone bore our sins and was nailed to a tree for us. The Holy Spirit did nothing of the kind.

The Holy Spirit's work is to convict us of sin and point us to Christ where we find forgiveness and cleansing. The Holy Spirit awakens our conscience and causes us to repent of our sins, but He does this by revealing Christ to us, not by pointing to Himself.

Notice that if the Holy Spirit is Christ, He would be pointing to Himself all the time, only under a different name. But the Bible is clear that the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself. John 16: 13-14. Jesus said, "HE will glorify Me." Therefore we know that the Holy Spirit cannot be one and the same as Christ Jesus. For if the Holy Spirit is pointing to Himself when He points to Christ, He would be glorifying Himself. The Holy Spirit cares nothing for glory, and frankly He is not concerned that people know everything about Himself. He loves people to give the glory to Christ, and the Father evidently feels the same way. The Father and the Spirit are not in the least jealous or envious of Christ. See John 5: 23. We are to honor the Son "just as" we honor the Father, i.e., equally. And if and when we don't, Jesus said we really are not honoring the Father.

[John317]

I agree that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person "in some sense" - there was a reason Mrs. White used the term "person" on rare occasion after all.

How can you explain Matt. 28: 19 in a way that makes this verse refer to only two persons and not to three?

The Greek construction can only be understood to be referring to three distinct persons.

Also, as long as we're going to quote Ellen White, we should consider that Ellen White refers to "three holiest beings of heaven," "three great Worthies," and she says that she prays to all three of these holiest beings. Moreover, Ellen White says each one of us may pray to all three. There is no sense in her writings that we should not pray to Jesus or worship Christ. In this, Ellen White is actually in agreement with the Bible.

Quote:

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character.

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 267, 268}

Notice the name is singular. What name (not names) is it under which we are baptized? Isn't that Name "Jehovah" or "God"? All three are God, aren't they? We worship one God--- that is, one in nature, character, and purpose, but NOT in person.

[John317]

... If God through Ellen White didn't have a problem with the views of our pioneers then why should I?

But she did-- that is, she certainly did not agree with them when they claimed that Christ was a created being or that He was not equal with the FAther. However, she didn't lecture them about being wrong with respect to the Godhead, either. She didn't consider it essential that everyone believe exactly alike on the subject. Our church was really just beginning.

Neither was the nature of the Deity at the top of Ellen White's list of priorities. There was a church to build and the Three Angels Messages to give to a dying world. Jesus was coming soon-- too soon for the church to get into side issues and argue about whether the Holy Spirit was a person or not.

Besides, Ellen White didn't drive or push people-- she led them. She never "argued," or "discussed," the topic. She said she felt that if people didn't accept the truth on the basis of her writings and sermons or talks, they wouldn't accept it on the basis of an argument. I think she was right.

Example of her idea:

Quote:

Those who have not moral power cannot stand in defense of the truth; they have not courage to say: "Unless such conversation ceases, I cannot remain in your presence. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, is my Saviour; in Him is centered my hope of eternal life." But this is the very way in which to silence them. If you argue with them, they will have arguments with which to meet you, and nothing you may say will touch them; but if you live for Christ, if you are firm in your allegiance to the God of heaven, you may do for them that which argument will fail to do, and convince them of the fallacy of their doctrines by the power of godliness. {MYP 88.3}

[John317]

...The way I understand it is that the Son's main purpose in coming was to show us the Father, not Himself.

Jesus' work is to "interpret" the Father. John 1: 18.

But how can Jesus do this if He Himself is not fully God-- of the same substance or essence as the Father?

The Father is invisible to human eyes, and Christ is God's thoughts made audible and visible. One of his titles is "The Word of God." Christ is everything God has to say to us.

Someone has explained it as when people's thoughts are unknown to everyone until they speak them. Just so, no human would know God apart from Christ, because He is God manifested in the flesh, in our own nature.

So, let's say that Christ is a creature. Could we have complete confidence in the Son, that He is exactly like the Father? How could we have this confidence if we knew that Christ was a creature and not God? That would be like thinking we can know what a human is like by looking at a monkey. A creature-- even a perfect one-- could not be even close to resembling the infinite, eternal, self-existenet God.

Does it help if Christ was brought in existence by the Father and thus owes His very existence to the Father. If this were the case, it would mean Christ is not infinite or eternal. You couldn't honestly say His life was original with Himself or that His life was not derived from anyone. Neither could we say, then, that Christ was the self-existent, eternal Son. Nor would Christ then be above law, because He would have come AFTER law, and thus He could not have made the law. But the Bible is quite explicit that Christ made everything that was ever made. John 1: 1-3; Col. 2: 17; Hebrews 1: 3, 10.

The New English Bible translates the last clause of John 1: 1 correctly: "What God was, the Word was." Astoundingly, it says that everything we can say about the Father is also true of Christ. Thus, since the Father is self-existent and eternal, so is Christ. Is the Father infinite? So is the Son. Is the Father without beginning and without ending? So is Christ.

Apart from Deity and sin, nothing exists in the universe that Christ did not make. As Scripture says, "All things were made through Christ, and without Him, nothing was made that was made." How can this be said of One who is not the infinite, self-existent, omnipotent God? I don't see how it could be.

[Truth Files]

Excellent post John3

[John317]

Your last paragraph, good point. It bothers me when I hear people praying to the HS...and to Jesus. Our instruction was to pray to the Father in the name (character, power, authority )of Jesus.

Both prayers and worship are directed to Christ in the New as well as in the Old.

Just a couple of examples:

On worship of Christ:

See Luke 24: 52 and Rev. 5: 14 (NASB; NIV; NRSV; ESV).

When Thomas answered Jesus, "My Lord and my God," it was certainly worship.

On prayer to Christ:

1 Cor. 1: 2. "Calling on the name of Jesus" is the same as saying "praying to Jesus."

This is proved by a comparison of Ps. 99: 6 and Acts 7: 59. Paul prayed to Christ in 1 Cor. 12: 8 and Stephen did in Acts 7: 59.

Since the Trinity is One God, we are actually praying-- whether we realize it or not-- to all three Persons of the Godhead.

They cooperate in everything, both in creation and in the plan and working out of the plan of redemption.

Ellen White makes it very clear that the Holy Spirit was one of the three holiest beings of heaven who felt pity for the human race and helped to design the plan of redemption and then gave Himself to the working out of this plan for the benefit of the human family.

How then can it be said that the Holy Spirit is not a person or that He does not have a will?

Ellen White herself sang praises to the 3 persons of the Trinity:

She often sang, "Praise FAther, Son, and Holy Ghost." It would be hard to understand how she would sing praises to an influence or an unconscious power. She urged that all SDAs sing such praises.

[John317]

:-) Thank you, Truth Files.

Been up all night.

And so

[teresaq]

Besides, Ellen White didn't drive or push people-- she led them. She never "argued," or "discussed," the topic. She said she felt that if people didn't accept the truth on the basis of her writings and sermons or talks, they wouldn't accept it on the basis of an argument. I think she was right.

Example of her idea:

Quote:

Those who have not moral power cannot stand in defense of the truth; they have not courage to say: "Unless such conversation ceases, I cannot remain in your presence. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, is my Saviour; in Him is centered my hope of eternal life." But this is the very way in which to silence them. If you argue with them, they will have arguments with which to meet you, and nothing you may say will touch them;... {MYP 88.3}

Sooo, that leads one to ask....

I agree fully with her thought, especially since I experience it with certain people...so on her counsel I bid this topic adieu.

("John" I have a very hard time having any kind of discussion with you when you persistently respond to something you quoted of mine in such a way as to make it appear I am saying something alien to my actual post.)

[John317]

I have a very hard time having any kind of discussion with you when you persistently respond to something you quoted of mine in such a way as to make it appear I am saying something alien to my actual post.

Why not show how this is being done?

If someone did this in your presence, wouldn't you say, "But that is not what I am saying. I am saying...."

Don't be afraid to explain how you feel people are misunderstanding you or misstating what you are saying.

Don't assume that people are doing it intentionally.

[Light Fox]

John,

Regarding your further 'questions':

1 Cor. 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing [distributing the spiritual gifts] to every man severally as he will.

Doesn't the above verse show clearly the self-determining will of the Holy Spirit?

[John317]

John,

Regarding your further 'questions':

Originally Posted By: John317

1 Cor. 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing [distributing the spiritual gifts] to every man severally as he will.

Doesn't the above verse show clearly the self-determining will of the Holy Spirit?

It would seem to imply such if removed from it's proper context. Take note of the beginning of this passage:

"And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." (v. 6,7)

It then goes on to give examples. God gives the Spirit, which manifests itself in various ways as He [God, the Father] wills. See also verses 18, 24, and 28, and take note of who "God" is in the list given in verses 5-7. It seems very clear to me that it's speaking of the Father here. Other verses bear this out, referring to the Spirit as a "gift" or "good things" given by the Father. (Luke 11:13, Matthew 7:11)

There were a few other verses, but I don't see how they implied that the Spirit was speaking of it's own will as opposed to the Spirit speaking the will of the Father and Son that send it.

What noun is the antecedent of the verb bouletai(willing)?

Isn't the antecedent the noun, pneuma (Spirit)?

Is the participle, diairoun (giving), neuter or masculine?

Isn't it neuter?

We know that the participle, diairoun, refers to the Spirit and not to the masculine noun, theos, in verse 5. Therefore, the masculine particple, diairoun, can only refer to the masculine noun, pneuma [spirit].

Also, notice that the Spirit is the one who's doing the "working" [Gk energei].

Verse 11 reads, "Yet all these are the work of one and the same Spirit, [and it] gives to each one just as it [the Spirit] wills."

Notice how the New Revised Standard Version translates it: "All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses."

The above translation is correct and agrees with every reputable commentary and translation of this verse.

Therefore it is impossible for "God" of verse 5 to be the one "willing" or "choosing" in verse 11. "God" is masculine and would require the participle and the verb in verse 11 to be also masculine. But the fact that they are neuter and agree with the neuter noun, pneuma (Spirit), proves that it is the Spirit who is doing the "working" and the "willing."

PS. I can't find a single Bible Commentary or Study Bible that says it was not the Holy Spirit who "wills." I just checked the SDA Bible Commentary, which also agrees that it is the Holy Spirit who is "willing" and who "works" and "distributes" the gifts. Virtually all of the Bible Commentaries point out that this verse is Scriptural proof that the Holy Spirit has a will and is a person, not an influence or an abstract power, etc.

[John317]

Finally, doesn't Luke 3: 21-22 show clearly that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son?

Originally Posted By: Qinael

Yes, it does show that it is distinct. As I mentioned before, the Spirit is different from the "spirit of man" in that it can be sent, breathed, withdrawn, etc. as a separate element from the actual bodily presence of the Father and Son.

Yes, indeed, and this is a huge difference. It's very significant that Jesus referred to the Spirit as a person, using the masculine personal pronoun, "He" and "Him," even though doing so violated the rules of grammar.

Jesus also called the Spirit "another Comforter" and said it would be "another of the same kind" as Jesus is. What kind of Comforter is Jesus? He is a person, and therefore the Holy Spirit must also be a person.

Quote:

On that note, this passage is another reason that I don't believe "distinct" and "independent person to itself" are reasonable synonyms. The Spirit appears as a dove - not a person or in the likeness of one. Can you imagine Yahweh appearing as a dove, or pre-incarnate Christ appearing as an oxen?

It's against the very core concept that He sought to instill of never likening God to created things. That the Spirit always appears as just such things as oil and birds is rather a problem, all things considered.

The Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit descended in "the bodily shape" LIKE a dove. It was a spernatural sign, a proof, from God to John the Baptist that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed the Messiah. See John 1: 31-33. We must decide whether to accept the Bible's testimony or whether we will reject it.

Those verses are NOT likening God to a bird, but it is saying that the third person of the Godhead was present and that the proof of His presence was the sign that God promised would come upon Jesus. No one is saying that God is like a bird.

What all the Gospels show is that the baptism of Jesus proves that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead, the Father speaking from heaven, the Holy Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove, and Christ is in the water.

There are many other Bible verses that show us the Holy Spirit is a divine person, not an unconcious influence or power. John 16: 13, 14 is one such verse:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

NOTE: (1) Jesus calls the Holy Spirit "the Spirit of truth."

(2) Jesus refers to the Spirit (a neuter noun) "He" and "himself," terms that violate the rules of grammar. If Jesus was merely following the rules of grammer, Christ would have said "it" and "itself," but Jesus went out of the way to refer to the Spirit as a person.

(3) Jesus said the Spirit will guide people. This requires a person with a will and intelligence.

(4) Jesus said the Spirit will guide people "into ALL truth." This requires a divine person who knows all truth, and therefore One who is omniscient.

(5) Jesus said the Spirit will not speak of Himself. This requires that the Spirit is able to speak. He could speak of Himself but He chooses to speak of Christ.

(6) Jesus said the Holy Spirit will show people the things to come. Only a divine person with great intelligence can show people the future.

(7)Jesus said the Spirit will glorify Jesus Christ by taking the things of Christ and showing them to people. Only a person can show things of Christ to people.

[John317]

What agent was the Holy Spirit speaking through, in the following verses:

Originally Posted By: Qinael

You listed three verses where the Spirit is listed as speaking to people in the verses themselves. I think there is a misunderstanding here. Obviously if the Spirit speaks through an agent, it speaks to that agent. What I meant to convey is that the Spirit always speaks through the Church, through a prophet, through the conscience, to the soul... it does not appear and speak for itself, or as a voice from heaven, or any such thing. In short, it's always an internal dialogue, as the voice of conviction. Without a "host" (such as the redeemed who possess the Spirit) it does not speak. There is an example of how this works in 2 Chron. 20:14-15.

You're right about 2 Chron 20: 14-15. The Holy Spirit spoke to Jahaziel, who in turn spoke the message to the people. But just as Jahaziel must be a person in order for him to speak to other persons, so the Holy Spirit must be a person in order to speak to persons.

My point, then, is that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to individuals.

He does not use an agent to speak to the individuals to whom He has spoken.

When a prophet relays those messages to the church or the world, He is acting as an agent for God, or as God's mouthpiece. That's the work of a prophet. But again, the Holy Spirit (God) speaks directly to individuals.

In fact, Jesus promised that the Spirit would speak and lead Christ's followers into all truth.