The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"

[Lysimachus]

The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"

by Lysimachus

Dispensationalists constantly appeal to Romans 11, and especially verse 26, to prove that the national state of Israel plays a role in Bible prophecy, and will be “saved” as a distinct and separate entity separate from the Church. However, we believe this theology is not based on a careful enough reading and study of Romans chapters 9-11.

The context of Romans 9-11 actually clearly teaches that the Olive Tree incorporates both Jews and Gentiles. The Olive Tree is ultimately Christ, and Christ is the embodiment of Israel. Those natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief are not promised unconditionally to be grafted in again, rather "IF they abide not still in unbelief" (Romans 11:23), they will be grafted back in again. So the promise is clearly conditional. In addition, it might be added that when a Jew accepts Christ, he is automatically grafted into the Tree. But there is only one tree, NOT two trees, one for Israel and one for the Church, as dispensational ideology would have us believe.

Paul clearly teaches that "all Israel" (vs. 26) will not be saved until (Gr. Achri, "as far as") the "fullness of the gentiles come in" (vs. 25). This proves that Israel is composed of Gentiles, and this is why verse 26 says "And SO all Israel shall be saved". The Greek word "so" is Houtos, and it means "in this manner." In other words, "In this manner, this is how all of Israel will be saved". Dispensationalism would have us believe that this word "so" means "then". But that's not what the verse says. The House of Israel gets filled up with Gentiles, and it is the Church that becomes the operator of the vineyard, Israel. Paul's words can only be understood in the light of the rest of scriptures, otherwise, if one interprets Romans 11 by itself, they are susceptible to come to faulty conclusions, and ultimately, those faulty conclusions will force one to conclude that Paul contradicts himself with Galatians 3:28,29; Galatians 4:22-31; Ephesians 2:11-21; Ephesians 3:3-6; 1Corinthians 12:13; Romans 9:6-8, and a host of other texts.

We have to allow Paul to interpret Paul, and let him define what the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 means.

Now let me be clear on something. God will protect and save any Jew who accepts Christ, regardless of where he lives. God loves the Jewish nation just as much as He loves France, England, Japan, China, Australia, Spain, or any other nation.

- French will be saved, but not "France"

- English will be saved, but not "England"

- Americans will be saved, but not "America"

- Chinese will be saved, but not "China"

The same it will be with the Jewish nation. Jews will be saved, but not "The National Jewish State of Israel". God's "Israel" is no longer defined by a piece of real-estate in the Middle East or ethnic lineage. But those Jews will be grafted into the Body of Christ, which is the Church, the remnant of Israel. And THIS is "how ALL Israel will be saved". In THIS manner.

God will protect all faithful Jews.

Now we are NOT to negate the fact that there will be a remnant of literal Jews in the end. I believe this with my whole heart. I believe there will be a literal remnant of Jewish people. While God's covenant is closed to the National Establishment of Israel, mercy is still open to Jews on an individual basis.

The problem, however, has to do with how dispensationalists are "conceptualizing" it. One must first remove Dispensational goggles to ascertain the following:

These Jewish people who repent will be grafted into the parent stock, which is Jesus Christ, the embodiment of His Church, since the Church represents the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12). So this "remnant of Jews" is automatically, recognized in God's eyes, as "part of the Church"...not a separate body. If Christ recognized them as a separate body, this would contradict Ephesians 2:12-19; 3:6, which states unequivocally and unapologetically that the wall of partition has come crashing down at the cross, that "both have been made one", making "one new man", in "one body" and that the strangers have become "fellow citizens with the saints", and the Gentiles are now "fellowheirs", and of the "same body" in Christ Jesus.

The Church is the Church, no matter how many Jews make up of it, no matter how many remnant Jews in the end repent. Any Jew that accepts Christ is automatically grafted into the stock of Israel. It is now a spiritual concept, not a fleshly, literal concept based on ethnic lineage!

John the Baptist already taught that the "Axe was being laid at the ROOT of the tree" (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), and Jesus said that the "fig tree" would grow no more fruit on it from that point forward and "forever" (Matthew 21:19). The fig tree was another national emblem of Israel, along with the olive tree (Hosea 10:1; Jeremiah 24:5; Hosea 9:10; Joel 1:7,12). This is why Jesus said "Your house is left unto you desolate" (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35).

In Hosea 1:6, we see the termination of the literal, local, kingdom of Israel, was foretold by the meaning of the name “Lo-ruhamah.” It reads: “And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah, that is, not having obtained mercy: for I will have no more mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away” (Hosea 1:6). When the prophet’s third child was born, God said “Call his name Lo-ammi, that is, not My people: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.” (Verse 9). The rejection, and later, the restoration of the northern ten tribes are taught in the meanings of the names of the prophet’s children. The prophecy of Hosea 1;10 and 11 is based on the meanings of these names. Paul, in Romans 9:22-28, presents the spiritual interpretation of Hosea’s prophecy: through the Gentiles accepting Christ! “The numberer of the children of Israel shall be as the sands of the sea.” (verse 27).

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You can find the rest of the debate on this subject in the original thread I posted it in at Theology Review.

[Sonny]

Romans 9:6 For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

[Truth Files]

All of believing Israel will survive the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12] [this is not the church] ..... a full 1/3 will believe and the Lord will protect them

The other 2/3 of unbelieving Israel at the time will be killed and lost forever

[Zechariah 12:2-3; 13:8-9; 14:1-11; Romans 11:25-36]

Those of the believing remnant part of Israel will He gather and they will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom on the earth as mortals [isaiah 11; 27:13; Ezekiel 36; Matthew 24:29-31]

[Lysimachus]

All of believing Israel will survive the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12] [this is not the church] ..... a full 1/3 will believe and the Lord will protect them

Even if a 1/3rd of them did believe the Lord (which you are misapplying the prophecy), these must be grafted into the Church to be saved.

One cannot be saved outside the body of Christ.

Also, why must God remove the Church in order to deal with Israel? Is it because God is not good at multi-tasking?

If God can protect the remnant of Israel through the tribulation, why can't He protect the Church through it just the same?

[Truth Files]

"If God can protect the remnant of Israel through the tribulation, why can't He protect the Church through it just the same?"

>This question does not seem to fit your replacement theology, but I will answer:

>The Lord has promised to keep living believers at the time from His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment [Jew and gentile alike] .... and He will do this [1Thessalonians 5:1-9; Revelation 3:10] [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones] [those who dwell in heaven]

>Those who profess only will go into the tribulation [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-17]

>The only promise of protection for tribulation believers [those who will become believers during the period] is for these: 144000 of the children of Israel [not the church] [Revelation 7:1-8; 9:4; 14:1-7], those who will flee Israel from the invasion of Satan's beast and his followers [Zechariah 14:1-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14], and His two prophets [witnesses] during their service in Jerusalem [Revelation 11:3-10]

>There are no others ..... the balance who become believers during the tribulation will be subjected to the possibility of physical death [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3], and billions who do not turn to the Lord will be killed and lost forever [Revelation 6:8; 9:18; Revelation 20:5; 20:11-15; 21:8]

>Some of those who become believers, both of Israel and of the nations of the gentiles will survive as mortals and will be gathered and will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth [Matthew 24:29-31 [isaiah 11; 27:13; Romans 11:25-36] [the 1/3 of Israel]; and [Matthew 25:31-46] [the sheep of the gentile nations]

>Those survivors found unbelieving and not supportive of Israel during the tribulation [same as the time of Jacob's trouble] will be rejected and lost forever [Matthew 24:44-51; 25:46] [the goats]

>Now let me ask you a question .... when are you and your church organization moving to Israel in the Middle East in order to experience the time of Jacob's trouble during the tribulation period since you think that your church is national Israel? [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12:1; Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; 24:21; Luke 21:20-28; 21;31-31; 21:36; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

>I know that you think Zechariah's vision has been fulfilled in the past, but this is impossible for many reasons .... namely the other related events described in the vision [these things never happened in 70 A.D. [Zechariah 14:3; 14:4-5; 14:6-11; 14:12-19]

[Lysimachus]

"If God can protect the remnant of Israel through the tribulation, why can't He protect the Church through it just the same?"

>This question does not seem to fit your replacement theology, but I will answer:

>The Lord has promised to keep living believers at the time from His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment [Jew and gentile alike] .... and He will do this [1Thessalonians 5:1-9; Revelation 3:10] [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones] [those who dwell in heaven]

[Dr. Rich]

Rev. 9:4-5 "And they were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man."

It appears that for the last five months of this earth's history, no one who has the seal of God will die except for the two witnesses as found in Rev. 11. The plagues will be poured out on the wicked. But I have not been able to find anywhere in Revelation where all of Israel will be saved.

[Truth Files]

"I never said Zechariah's vision has been fulfilled in the past. Only PARTS of Zechariah's visions came to fruition, but they never fully materailized"

>Tell me which parts were fulfilled and which have not been ..... and give the proof by the historical record

>All of the prophet's visions are 100% accurate and can be verified by the historical record for those fulfilled

..... and so will all of the events scheduled for the future be 100% accurate just as they are written