Who Are These Immortal Humans?

[Truth Files]

Who are these immortal humans and when and how will they reach their destination to dwell in the heavenly state of existence with the Lord during His coming hour of trial and judgment upon the whole earth? [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones]

[Stan]

as far as I can read, only God has immortality, at least from a Biblical view. We shall put on immortality when Christ returns.

[John317]

Who are these immortal humans and when and how will they reach their destination to dwell in the heavenly state of existence with the Lord during His coming hour of trial and judgment upon the whole earth? [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones]

Your verses deal with different periods of time and with different groups, some of which may not be human.

But to answer briefly, there were some humans who were resurrected at the time of Christ's resurrection and these ascended to heaven with Christ. Compare Matt. 27: 52, 53; Eph. 4: 8. We have no idea who they were or how many they are.

Now let's look at each of the verses individually, beginning with the first three you've mentioned:

Quote:

Rev. 3: 10-- Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

NOTE: Jesus is not promising to take people out of the world during the hour of trial (i.e., during the seven last plagues), but He promises the church in Philadelphia that He will go through the hour of trial with them and protect them. "Upon all the world" refers to the wicked.

Quote:

REv. 4: 4-- And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

NOTE: The identity of these beings are not known for certain, but evidence suggests that they are redeemed human beings. The book of Revelation does not explain how these humans came to be in heaven.

The scene above is set in the heavenly throne room and the heavenly hosts worshipping therein and praising God, who is sitting on the throne.

Quote:

Rev. 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

NOTE: The above describes the throne room in heaven and the coronation of the ascended and glorified Christ who is on the heavenly throne at the right hand of the Father after the incarnation and his death and resurrection. The enthronement of Christ took place in heaven at Pentecost. His enthronement made the manifestation of the work of the Holy Spirit legitimate and visible. Eph. 4: 8-14. See the first part of this post for my thoughts on their identity.

[Truth Files]

"as far as I can read, only God has immortality, at least from a Biblical view. We shall put on immortality when Christ returns."

>This is true [1Corinthians 15:22-23]

"But to answer briefly, there were some humans who were resurrected at the time of Christ's resurrection and these ascended to heaven with Christ. Compare Matt. 27: 52, 53; Eph. 4: 8. We have no idea who they were or how many they are."

>This cannot be true [1Corinthians 15:22-23]

>Those resurrected at the time of the Lord's resurrection were a witness that the dead can be raised .... these later died and are waiting for the Lord's coming [similar to the experience of Laserath .... the Lord raised him, he later died, and is still waiting]

"Jesus is not promising to take people out of the world during the hour of trial"

>Yes He is .... exactly what He says [1Thessalonians 5:1-9; 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 3:10; 18:4] [He will not take those who profess only] [Matthew 25:1-3; Revelation 3:15-19] .... and this is why His church is seen dwelling in heaven with Him while He pours out His judgments upon the earth ..... and these plus those who become believers during His hour [time] of trial will return with Him to contend at Armageddon and to rule with Him over His coming millennial kingdom [Revelation 19:11-21; 20:4-6]

"The identity of these beings are not known for certain, but evidence suggests that they are redeemed human beings. The book of Revelation does not explain how these humans came to be in heaven"

>Their identity is known .... they describe themselves and the others [5:1-10; 7:9-17] .... they are redeemed and immortal

Let's see if there are any other posters who would like to comment .... then I will conclude

[John317]

"But to answer briefly' date=' there were some humans who were resurrected at the time of Christ's resurrection and these ascended to heaven with Christ. Compare Matt. 27: 52, 53; Eph. 4: 8. We have no idea who they were or how many they are."

Originally Posted By: Truth Files

>This cannot be true [1Corinthians 15:22-23']

Why don't you deal with the Bible evidence I referred to?

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The above verses don't contradict what I said earlier. All who are made alive are certainly made alive in Christ. The vast majority of God's people will not go to be with Christ until His second coming, yet there are some exceptions to the general rule, and Eph. 4: 8 speaks to one such exception.

[Truth Files]

"The vast majority of God's people will not go to be with Christ until His second coming, yet there are some exceptions to the general rule"

>There are no exceptions John317

>If you want further explanation about what you call the exceptions I will explain ..... be specific with your examples

[Kevin H]

Thank you for your posts John. There are some things that was pointed out at AUC about Revelation 4 and 5. You have the throne of God with different symbols for the trinity. then the 24 elders, and then the 4 living beasts.

It was pointed out that the 4 living beasts were in the Old Testament symbols for the major tribes of the Hebrews in the marching order of the exodus, the tabernacle in the center, and the 12 tribes at 3 to a side made a square around it. (by the way, the high priests breast plate did not look like how we usually have it drawn with all the columns. It was a reflection of the camp, an empty space in the middle representing God's presence and the 4 sides of stones framing it. He was carrying God's people on his heart) So basically these 4 living creatures are a symbol of God's people heading to the promised land.

In between are 24 elders. In the ancient world there was the king and his court of 70 elders, which was divided into 3 groups of 23 plus the king = 70. However when the courts met, they needed at least 23 elders and the king for 24 elders, and this could further break down into two groups of 12. Rabbis tended to have 12 full time disciples and 70 part time disciples based on this.

The Sanhedren was based on this. there were 70 elders in 3 groups of 23 plus the high priest. Now one group of 23 on the Sanhedren was 23 Sadducee priests, who were basically corrupt puppets of Rome. The house of Annas belonged to this party. They would often meet to make decisions that the Pharisees would not go along with. One topic they would deal with was some of the potential "messianic" figures. Many in Judah had realized that they were coming to the end of the 70 weeks of years in Daniel and thus many people either claimed to be the messiah. Others were popular religious leaders who did not claim to be the messiah but who Rome and the Sadducees tended to worry about anyway.

The house of Annas and the Roman governors worked together. The Sanhedren working on religious issues and religious court system and the Governor for the civil issues. The Sanhedren could not crucify someone, and thus we tend to think that they could not put people to death at all. That is not true. They could stone people to death for religious reasons. If the Romans learned about a messianic figure who did not have any civil violations, they would notify the house of Annas to take care of them. Likewise if the house of Annia felt there were civil issues they would refer to the Governor. The tendency of the house of Annas was to get 23 Sadducees together, and purposely make a mockery with deliberately having the witnesses disagree with each other and then they would take the poor guy out and stone him to death. However, sometimes there were people who the 24 Sadduceian elders would normally stone to death, but who were so popular with the people that they deiced to do something else. When Deuteronomy said that cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree, in the time of the house of Annas, they understood that text to mean that anyone blessed by God would not hang on a tree. Thus if someone was hung on a tree it meant that God was not with them, that they were an enemy of God. It would ruin the reputation as much as if you were to learn of any sin that a pastor was doing that would make you distance yourself from that pastor. Thus to really destroy someone's influence there were people who would normally be stoned by the 24 Sadduceian elders who were instead turned over to the governor to be crucified. Most crosses were the olive trees, and people nailed on to the tree with or without a cross beam.

If it was the same John of Revelation as for the book of John, he saw 24 elders who were giving false testimony about Jesus. Now he sees their heavenly counter part, 24 elders giving true testimony about Jesus. Two groups of 12 who are communicating the message from the throne to God's church who is traveling in the wilderness to the promised land. In short the testimony of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles. Although they did not have the old and New Testaments as such (They were finishing up the Old Testament, and have yet to collect and argue over what should be the new) We can summarize the 24 elders as the witnesses of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles that became the Old and New Testaments.

[Truth Files]

"We can summarize the 24 elders as the witnesses of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles"

>it is possible that the 24 will be the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 Apostles of the church

>I do believe that John sees himself as one of the 12 Apostles when his spirit was taken to heaven and into the future to view the things hereafter [Revelation 4:1; 7:9-17] .... he may have been speaking in dialogue with himself

>However, Revelation's presentation does not specifically identify the 24 individually except that they are members of the immortal redeemed of the Lord's church [Revelation 5:1-10]

[Lysimachus]

"When you ascended on high, you took many captives; you received gifts from people, even from the rebellious—that you, LORD God, might dwell there." (Psalms 68:18, NIV)

"This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” (Ephesians 4:8, NIV)

Who were these captives?

Why the ones that resurrected!

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Matthew 27:53)

Logically, these are the "captives" that Jesus took with Him when He ascended up on high. There is no exegetical basis whatsoever to say that these saints that arose ended up dying again like Lazarus. There is not a scintilla of exegetical basis to base this conclusion on. But Ephesians 4:8 and Psalms 68:18 (whom Paul is quoting) does give us this clue.

These were the captives of death. Satan held them captive in the grave, as the grave is his kingdom. Jesus freed them from this captivity.

This phrase "lead captivity captive" is found in the Old Testament in regards to delivering prisoners from prison and leading them out of captivity (see Judges 5:12).

Once this principle is understood, all the wild delusions that these texts in Revelation and elsewhere demand a "pre-tribulation rapture" dissipate into thin air. At one stroke, their whole entire theological framework comes crashing down.

[John317]

...Once this principle is understood, all the wild delusions that these texts in Revelation and elsewhere demand a "pre-tribulation rapture" dissipate into thin air. At one stroke, their whole entire theological framework comes crashing down.

I agree. There's no valid biblical evidence for a pre-trib rapture. The whole structure is built on sinking sand.

[Truth Files]

Better make sure you are ready

He has said this for a reason .... no joke

Those who dwell in heaven during His coming hour of trial is the pre-tribulation church [Revelation 3:10] .... both those asleep and living together at the time are going [1Corinthians 15:22-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18]

>The evidence of this truth is given in Revelation's unfolding

Those who are not ready and only profess to be christian, and or think they are saved are not going [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

Your choice