Daniel 8

[Primevil60]

Been studying Daniel, and there are a few things I don't understand in the SDA interpretation.

The first issue I have is how can this horn be the same as chapter 7? Yes, they have similarities, but they come from two different kingdoms! I understand the masculine/feminine argument that it is referring to the horn rising out of one of the four winds/corners of the earth, but if that was the case wouldn't the previous verses in the chapter be useless? If this horn is the same as the previous chapter than the setting is not describing either an accurate timeline or an accurate political climate of when the horn arises.

please i would like an SDA answer, thank you and God bless.

[Haldog]

I've found that when SDA's take their time answering they are having to email someone like "It Is Written" or some such for an answer. Could be just my

experience, your mileage may vary.

[Lysimachus]

Lol Haldog. No, not the case here. I promise to get back to you as soon as possible. It's almost Sabbath here, so running around like a chicken with its head cut off.

However, I do want you to know that a number of books have thoroughly addressed these matters. I have always considered it a good policy that people who have questions about the Adventist faith need to first take out time to read as many of the best recommended books as possible before they engage on a discussion board. That way it will save people a lot of time.

I recommend reading "Graffiti in the Holy of Holies" by Clifford Goldstein and also "1844 Made Simple" by him as well. He explains well why the Little Horn of Daniel 8 represents both Pagan and Papal Rome. Pagan when it is pushing on a horizontal plain, and Papal when it is pushing on a vertical plain.

More later...

P.S. I also recommend reading Pastor Stephen Bohr's Study Notes (you can buy his binder notes--very exegetical--more exegetical than most) at www.SecretsUnsealed.org. Some of his stuff is online for free, but you have to purchase most of the Study Notes. I have them all, and they are well worth it.

[miz3]

These uninspired authors can tell us the truth?

Notice just simply reading the Bible and what it actually says is no where to found in SDA Church! Yet they call themselves a Bible and Bible only Church. The dishonesty is clearly evident.

[Lysimachus]

These uninspired authors can tell us the truth?

Notice just simply reading the Bible and what it actually says is no where to found in SDA Church! Yet they call themselves a Bible and Bible only Church. The dishonesty is clearly evident.

Any author can tell us the truth. Most authors don't. I'm recommending these books because I've read them, and their arguments stand on their on merits alone, regardless of the author.

[miz3]

Why don't you like the Bible, Lysimachus?

[Musicman1228]

These uninspired authors can tell us the truth?

Notice just simply reading the Bible and what it actually says is no where to found in SDA Church! Yet they call themselves a Bible and Bible only Church. The dishonesty is clearly evident.

Oh I beg to differ, Kemosabe.

Jesus defined clearly who the Kingdom of Heaven would be at the end of time in Matt. 25:1-13. If you look without blinders you will notice that these Bridesmaids (virgins) went out to meet the Bridegroom at a specific time based on a prophecy (the 2300 days in Dan. 8:14). This is indicated by the fact that they ALL had lamps that were burning with the light of prophecy supplied by the oil of the Holy Spirit. This also occurred a midnight, which means there were no prophetic signs and wonders going on when this happened.

The Great Disappointment of the early Adventists is described precisely in the passage; the Bridegroom DELAYED His coming so all of the Bridesmaids that had already gone out on the road to wait for the Bridegroom (out of their home churches) fell asleep. This is what happened in 1844 AD. It fits NO OTHER denomination.

There are lots more indicators; if you look for them with open eyes you will find them. I suggest starting in the Seven churches in Rev. 2.

[Gerr]

I've found that when SDA's take their time answering they are having to email someone loike "It Is Written" or some such for an answer. Could be just my

experience, your mileage may vary.

Any of you SDAs on this forum ever call up "It is Written" or any other SDA church agencies for answers? Ridiculous notion in my experience.

[Gerr]

Been studying Daniel, and there are a few things I don't understand in the SDA interpretation.

The first issue I have is how can this horn be the same as chapter 7?

please i would like an SDA answer, thank you and God bless.

What I am going to tell you is one SDA answer. I do not presume to answer for every SD Adventist.

The short answer is that the two horns are NOT the same. Notice that in Dan 7, four superkingdoms are seen in vision - 1) Lion = Babylon 2) Bear = Medo-Persia 3) Leopard = Greece 4)Terrifying and dreadful beast = Rome. This 4th beast had 10 horns plus an 11th, a "little one" (Dan 7:8)before whom 3 of the 10 horns were "plucked up". This "little one" is later described in 7:20 as "seemed greater than its companions" (ESV). This little horn is characterized as having "eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things," (7:8) and "made war with the saints and prevailed over them" (7:21), and also "shall think to change the times and the law" (7:25) and exercises power over the saints for "a time, times, and half a time" (7:25).

I think that most SDAs believe that this little horn in Dan 7 is papal Rome. We can get into the reasons for holding this view if you want, but later.

The little horn in Dan 8 that comes out from one of the four winds or from one of the four directions of the compass is Rome in its pagan AND papal phase. The SDA logic runs thus: in Dan 2, an outline of FOUR world empires is shown in the metallic image - Head of gold = Babylon, chest & arms of silver = Medo-Persia, middle & thighs of bronze = Greece, legs of iron = Rome. Dan 7 follows with the same succession of 4 superkingdoms but with more added detail. In Dan 8, Babylon is no longer mentioned because it was about to be supplanted Medo-Persia, represented by the ram with two horns. This was followed by the ram (Greece). These identifications were made by the angel Gabriel himself. Following the cue from Dan 7 & 8, SDAs logically reason that the little horn of Dan 8 that follows Greece has to be Rome. So the two little horns are NOT one and the same.

(And I did not call "It is Written" or "Voice of Prophecy.)

[Primevil60]

I don't get that. Where else in scripture does a horn mean a world ruling kingdom? isn't that reserved for beasts? If the horn of daniel 8 meant Rome in any way it would be logical that it wouldn't be referred to as just a horn.

[Lysimachus]

What I am going to tell you is one SDA answer. I do not presume to answer for every SD Adventist.

The short answer is that the two horns are NOT the same. Notice that in Dan 7, four superkingdoms are seen in vision - 1) Lion = Babylon 2) Bear = Medo-Persia 3) Leopard = Greece 4)Terrifying and dreadful beast = Rome. This 4th beast had 10 horns plus an 11th, a "little one" (Dan 7:8)before whom 3 of the 10 horns were "plucked up". This "little one" is later described in 7:20 as "seemed greater than its companions" (ESV). This little horn is characterized as having "eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things," (7:8) and "made war with the saints and prevailed over them" (7:21), and also "shall think to change the times and the law" (7:25) and exercises power over the saints for "a time, times, and half a time" (7:25).

I think that most SDAs believe that this little horn in Dan 7 is papal Rome. We can get into the reasons for holding this view if you want, but later.

The little horn in Dan 8 that comes out from one of the four winds or from one of the four directions of the compass is Rome in its pagan AND papal phase. The SDA logic runs thus: in Dan 2, an outline of FOUR world empires is shown in the metallic image - Head of gold = Babylon, chest & arms of silver = Medo-Persia, middle & thighs of bronze = Greece, legs of iron = Rome. Dan 7 follows with the same succession of 4 superkingdoms but with more added detail. In Dan 8, Babylon is no longer mentioned because it was about to be supplanted Medo-Persia, represented by the ram with two horns. This was followed by the ram (Greece). These identifications were made by the angel Gabriel himself. Following the cue from Dan 7 & 8, SDAs logically reason that the little horn of Dan 8 that follows Greece has to be Rome. So the two little horns are NOT one and the same.

(And I did not call "It is Written" or "Voice of Prophecy.)

You are confusing me Gerry. =P

You say the two horns are not the same, but then in your description, you say they are the same.

Keep in mind that when people register "not the same" in their minds, they are thinking that the Little Horn of Daniel 8 must be someone like Antiochus Epiphanies. So your "not the same" and their way of thinking "not the same" are two different versions of "not the same".

In a nutshell, you'd be better of stating that the Little Horn in Daniel 8 simply represents both the Beast and the Little Horn in Daniel 7.

This is perfectly acceptable in light of the fact that beasts represent "kingdoms" (Daniel 7:23), but also horns represent "kingdoms" (Daniel 8:22). And while Alexander's 4 divisions are represented as "horns" in Daniel 8:8,22, they are represented as 4 "beast" heads in Daniel 7:6.

So figurative expressions are easily interchangeable in the Bible, especially when trying to conceptualize principles from varying different angles.

Keep in mind that the Little Horn of Daniel 7makes war on the saints, and prevails against them (7:21), and speaks against the most High and wears out the saints of the Most High (7:25).

We find these same characteristics of the Little Horn in Daniel 8. In verse 11 "he magnifies himself even to the prince of the host", and "shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people" (verse 24) (the Papacy prospered for over 1000 years, and destroyed God's people), and "he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand." (verse 25). The Papacy usurped the High Priestly ministry of Christ by claiming to forgive sins, and to this day, he has prospered and has not been broken by human hand. Pagan Rome was broken by human hand--the Barbarians.

Antiochus did not prosper very long. The Romans continuously kept him in "check". They let him get away with some things, but they also were containing his aggression. After his death, his empire ended up destroying itself in civil war and unrest. Truly human hand kept him in check.

We must also remember that Horns and Beasts represent kingdoms. Although "kings" are used, this is simply an expression used because the kingdom is headed by a king, and a king is always the representative figure of a nation.

So Antiochus cannot be another horn growing out of his own kingdom which is already a horn. It is inconsistent to say that one of the 4 horns is the Seleucid kingdom only to say that Antiochus, a single man, is another horn growing out of a horn.

The fact is, Antiochus was NOT the "Little Horn" of Daniel 8, rather he was ONE of the 4 horns! As he was KING of the Seleucid empire. He did not grow out of his own kingdom! He WAS his kingdom!

[Lysimachus]

I don't get that. Where else in scripture does a horn mean a world ruling kingdom? isn't that reserved for beasts? If the horn of daniel 8 meant Rome in any way it would be logical that it wouldn't be referred to as just a horn.

Daniel 8:22 tells you that horns represent kingdoms. Also, the Great Horn that grew out of the Goat was the Macedonian empire under Alexander the Great that grew out of Greece. This great horn was a "world ruling kingdom".

[teresaq]

I don't get that. Where else in scripture does a horn mean a world ruling kingdom? isn't that reserved for beasts? If the horn of daniel 8 meant Rome in any way it would be logical that it wouldn't be referred to as just a horn.

My understanding of "horn" is "power". Kings and kingdoms usually have power hence...

[John317]

These uninspired authors can tell us the truth?

Notice just simply reading the Bible and what it actually says is no where to found in SDA Church! Yet they call themselves a Bible and Bible only Church. The dishonesty is clearly evident.

You make an unfair-- if not dishonest-- statement here.

Are we being dishonest for reading what you and other unispired people write? If not, why is it dishonest to consider what various Bible scholars or historians or commentators have written on the topic?

No one is saying that something is true simply because so-and-so wrote it. We're asking you to consider the reasons they concluded what they did. The conclusions are nothing if they aren't supported by valid biblical evidence and sound reasoning.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: miz3

These uninspired authors can tell us the truth?

Notice just simply reading the Bible and what it actually says is no where to found in SDA Church! Yet they call themselves a Bible and Bible only Church. The dishonesty is clearly evident.

You make an unfair-- if not dishonest-- statement here.

Are we being dishonest for reading what you and other unispired people write? If not, why is it dishonest to consider what various Bible scholars or historians or commentators have written on the topic?

No one is saying that something is true simply because so-and-so wrote it. We're asking you to consider the reasons they concluded what they did. The conclusions are nothing if they aren't supported by valid biblical evidence and sound reasoning.

Well said John317. And I was thinking, what if we turned that argument back on miz3? We should not read anything miz3 has to say about his interpretation of the Bible, because miz3 is not inspired!

So let's not read his posts! He's not inspired! He will try and convince you that we should only read the Bible, but in so doing, he must write out his uninspired explanation to convince you about what he thinks the inspired Bible is saying!

Oh if he could only see himself!

[John317]

I agree. I have never understood people who claimed that I shouldn't read what a Bible commentator or other published author said but yet want me to pay close attention to what they themselves say. Something clearly wrong there!

[teresaq]

I understood you to refer to the authors referred to above your post, and "authorities" in general, in your first comment. Given the subsequent posts responding to yours, please correct me if I am the one who did err in reading your post.

RE your second comment, I have to admit that I do see a lot more reliance on someone "who knows" than I do on any studying and knowing the scriptures themselves.

I myself have been quite guilty in that area.

These uninspired authors can tell us the truth?

Notice just simply reading the Bible and what it actually says is no where to found in SDA Church! Yet they call themselves a Bible and Bible only Church. The dishonesty is clearly evident.

[Gerr]

You are confusing me Gerry. =P

You say the two horns are not the same, but then in your description, you say they are the same.

Sorry to confuse you. The two little horns are NOT one and the same. The little horn of Dan 7 that became stouter than its fellows = the papacy that CAME OUT of the terrifying 4th beast (pagan Rome). The little horn of Dan 8 that "grew exceedingly great" "even to the host of heaven" "even as great as the Prince of the host" = Rome in its pagan & papal phase. There is a little overlap between the two. In the former (Dan 7), the little horn and the 4th beast are distinct entities although the horn emerges out of the beast. In the latter (Dan 8), the little horn represents BOTH, i.e. Rome in its pagan and papal phase.

Quote:

Keep in mind that when people register "not the same" in their minds, they are thinking that the Little Horn of Daniel 8 must be someone like Antiochus Epiphanies. So your "not the same" and their way of thinking "not the same" are two different versions of "not the same".

Antiochus Epiphanes, while he fits SOME of the description of the little horn of Dan 8, falls far short. If the goat (Greece) "grew exceedingly great", and the little horn of Dan 8 "grew exceedingly great", how could Antiochus who was derisively referred to as "Epimanes", even be thought of as fulfilling the prophecy? Antiochus did trample some of the host to the ground, but he did not become great "as great as the Prince of the host". While he took away the regular burnt offering for a time, it does not fit the 2300 days/years of the prophecy.

In the institution of the mass, the papacy had effectively obliterated from the minds of men, Christ's priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. The rediscovery of Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary in 1844, I believe is a fulfillment of the prophecy, that the "sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state." (ESV).

Quote:

In a nutshell, you'd be better of stating that the Little Horn in Daniel 8 simply represents both the Beast and the Little Horn in Daniel 7.

Agreed.

[Lysimachus]

I am agreeing with you 100% Gerry, but I still don't get how you believe they are "not the same". Whether Pagan or Papal, Rome is Rome. Yes, the overlap is different, but essentially speaking, both horns refer to Rome. Daniel 7's horn is focused exclusively on the Papal phase, and Daniel 8's horn is both Pagan and Papal--which, essentially, makes it the same as the Little Horn of Daniel 7. Right? Yes, there is a "difference", but not to the extend that you seem to be making it.

[wayfinder]

The horn that uproots three of the ten horns on the fourth beast (Daniel 7)represents the papal rulers (kings). The horn in Daniel 8, represents the ruler that is released from the abyss (fifth trumpet), which is also the same event as the appearance of the second beast of Revelation 13, (the appearance of the evil one).

[Gerr]

They CAN'T possibly be the same. The little horn of Dan 7 represents ONLY part of the whole (4th kingdom), whereas the little horn of Dan 8 represents the whole including the part.

[12tribes]

They CAN'T possibly be the same. The little horn of Dan 7 represents ONLY part of the whole (4th kingdom), whereas the little horn of Dan 8 represents the whole including the part.

Daniel 8:10-11

(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Notice that verse 10 says it then verse 11 says he signifying a change. Also Revelation 12 has Rome in both stages

[12tribes]

Plus Daniel 8 is sanctuary language