What does/should one expect from a...

[Stan]

What does/should one expect from a CHURCH?

[Tom Wetmore]

Just remembering John F. Kennedy's famous speech about duty to country.

[Aliensanctuary]

My fellow Adventists,

Ask not what you can do for your church,

ask what your church can do for YOU.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

[Aliensanctuary]

Churches are made up of fallible, erring individuals. We will see hypocrites there, and perhaps, they are us.

We might be better off if we gathered with friends in a home to read and discuss the scriptures, far away from the pomp and circumstance, rites and rituals, stand-up/sit-down, turn in your hymbooks to page..., and so on, all parts of church culture.

Churches can be such lonely places for some. Sure, there are the crowds, but there's often little interaction between the members other than the customary "Hi. How are you" stuff. Still, there are those trying to find God there. We can only hope that they are successful.

[fccool]

I think it's not as much the Kennedy statement, but rather a do unto others as you wish to be done unto you issue.

I don't think one should expect of a church anything more than one would expect of him/herself.

It's a good principle to approach anything, and not be terribly disappointed in the process :)

[Tom Wetmore]

I agree. That would seem to be a very essential characteristic of a healthy community. Ideally I see church as a community. Church should be much more intentionally relational. And other-mindedness is key to that.

[abelisle]

Here's my issue with church as a community/family.

I have no choice in who becomes a member. Must I befriend them? Would I be friends with them if I met them in a secular setting? Will the church "self-correct" if it detects a dysfunctionality? Families have issues with this - should I expect more from my church than I do my family?

And If I only befriend a few members because I really like them, not simply because they adhere to Adventism, can I say that I am a "loving" member of my church family?

Alex (being an introverted extrovert doesn't help matters

[teresaq]

I can't say that I have been happy with the church. For a long time, as I started learning of God, I stayed away from the church so I wouldn't be "contaminated" by those who followed man rather than God-as I saw/see it.

Let me hasten to add that I did not wish to contaminate the church with my ignorance either.

I have checked in every once in a while and run back out escaping for my life.

I have been back in for a few years now. The current pastor makes it easier to stay in, which is a big help, but it is also my attitude. I am still not fully converted, self has not died completely, as is all too plain on this board by not a few of my posts. But I am now struggling for a different attitude and approach to the problems I see.

One of the problems has been a person who came in on a "profession of faith" but only re the sabbath and perhaps not eating meat. Long story short I am just like certain others on this board when it comes to, "get in all the way" or "go flop on ..." Perhaps this person has not come in all the way because of such not-so-veiled hate. I also would run the person out.

But that still, small voice reminds me that God loves that person and all those that I don't agree with. He would have me befriend those people and present Jesus to them. Not preachy/teachy the person about the beliefs or doctrines of the church, blah, blah, blah, but befriend that person and in the Spirit of Christ WHEN He presents opportunity present a counter suggestion, while allowing them complete freedom to retain their beliefs-as wrong as they might be .

Re the op question, nothing. The question is, how can I die to self, be converted, and let Christ shine through.

[phkrause]

I see no problem not befriending every member. I would ask, would you help out a member that you are not friends with! Like if you find out that a member is having trouble putting food on there table, would you give towards that?

[abelisle]

Helping someone is not a problem, just wondering if you can "like" but not necessarily "love" each member?

Seems like the Bible tells us to "love one another to show that we are his disciples"? So when I help someone, that's an act of love, right?

Alex

[Gail]

When I hear the word "expect" I have the picture of setting yourself to be let down...

But it's a good question, one that I have thought about, too.

[Gail]

Right now I am in the middle of helping an elderly lady who is in palliative care in the hospital. She and her husband both have cancer.

There is a lady who has become somewhat co-partners in "aiding" with me, as her father is dying from brain cancer.

The hubby of the lady I am friends with told this daughter how the church has helped them out, as they have no family on this continent except us. Besides me there is one other church member who has provided all their needs, much more than I. But she is away now so I have the honour of caring for this bout of hospital stay and running around.

But the neat thing is- that daughter of the brain cancer man talks to me about how wonderful it is to have a faith. Her face lights up when we chat. We talk about death as if it's "just another thing" that life dishes out, and to God it's a pebble in the bigger picture.

So we are all able to minister to each other- the dying to us and we to them. And we are able to glorify God through it all. It's a painful process but what a difference hope and trust in the Lord makes!

That, I think, is what makes a church family so awesome. :)

[phkrause]

I would definitely say that helping someone is an act of love, even if you do not love that person.

[Neil D]

Teresa...

You say that self is not converted....I wonder.....

When will self ever be totally converted? I don't think it ever will, this side of the 2nd coming...

This problem of self always comes up and interferes with our faith and our relationships...I would wonder what would happen if we just did some fun stuff for one another....Just arbitrarily baked some cookies for an old senior member who you don't know very well.... [ok, maybe they are not regular ATTENDING members, but bake the cookies and then give them to someone, saying that these are for them!] and then, just watch what happens to the membership....Or instead of cookies, maybe brownies...That may allow someone to invite you to their home where you find something to do for them......

The thing that I am trying to get across is to practice some good things to do...call it good works, calll it being friendly, call it what e v e r you want, but just do something good for a member of your church and observe what happens.....

We moan and complain about our church, about how unfriendly it feels, about the back biting and the complaints that we see....but I wonder what would happen if we just practiced being friendly and doing good works for our members....make doing something for others a part of being......

[Tom Wetmore]

...and not worry so much about getting all the theological trivia just right that so consumes our time, leaving us too exhausted to bake cookies.

[teresaq]

hamilton-beach, I guess it depends on what one's picture of converted is. Mine is that I would be thinking and doing for others at the head. Looking for their best...

VERY GOOD POINT, TOM! lol

I have been thinking about that lately. If we are so busy making sure the supposed "audience" is not led astray, or knows the "right" answers, at least according to the person who has set him/herself up to be the defender of the faith/the heretic seeker, what possible time do they/we have for anyone else?

[teresaq]

And a very sincere welcome to the forum from what I have seen of your posts, hamilton-beach. :)

[Parade Orange]

GOD BLESS U ALL

GAIL AMEN

AND THERESE(SDA) ty for being so honest and self examining

amen to that!

and HAMELTON GBU2

i keep thinking of a blender when i see your name

its nice to see a thread where people are thinking outloud and not attacking

[Gail]

HAMELTON is a great name, I'm sure, although it reminds me of camel toe...

Bad Gail!!!

[Gail]

me->

[John317]

pk, when you talk about loving other people, are you talking about a feeling for that person?

I think when Jesus spoke of the necessity of his followers' loving each other, He was not talking primarily of how they should feel toward one another. I think Jesus must have been talking about his disciples' choices and what they would do for one another.

[teresaq]

I have read Pk's 2 posts several times now and have finally concluded you must be a relative of J and a few others here.

edit: I have read yours and his posts again, and believe I was quite mistaken. I am sorry!

[Neil D]

2 comments to 2 people.....

PO- I can whiz up all sort of controversies.....but I think I can blend in well here...

Gail- Camel Toe???? explain what you mean...please...

[Tom Wetmore]

I think Jesus was speaking primarily of how the disciples should feel toward others. It is not simply about actions. Love is first and foremost an emotional response or attitude toward someone. When he speaks of God's love as like that of a parent for their child, that is not just a principle of good parenting skills. Such an emotional bond or attitude does motivate a choice toward positive action. We can choose to do good without that motivation, but how long will it last if there is no love?

The gospels refer to Jesus being moved with compassion. This seems a response of a loving heart. The Greek words, as I understand them, that translate as mercy and compassion denote a feeling, deep in ones gut, of sympathy and pity for another. (The ancients believed that emotions came from the gut.) It is not simply seeing a task that needs to be done and doing it. It goes deeper than that.

Jesus spoke very strongly against outward acts of "goodness" that came from an empty or contrary heart. He called such people hypocrites. It is more than outward acts of kindness, a show of charity, it must come from deep within your soul, at the very heart of your being.