"Understand The Vision"

[Overaged]

I see there are some topics regarding the book of Daniel in some way; but I thought I would like to start this topic to address it in a specific way.

Most of the other topics are digressed a bit into various sidelines, like sabbath,Ellen White, etc, for one example.

I was hoping to have this topic as something where only the book of Daniel is discussed, and only the Bible is used.

I know that's a tall order for some, (lol), but I really enjoy the many spiritual lessons and principles that come out of a study from any part of the Bible, using only the Bible. It really is a great experience.

Jesus asked "how readest thou;" (Luke 10:26 ) and so I thought we could try going through the book of Daniel, verse, by verse, or just choose a passage from it that's meaningful to you, asking each other, "How readest thou?" When Jesus asked this question; He refered to "The Law," meaning OT, so we can apply this to the book of Daniel too.

One thing I see all the time is to lose touch with practical Christianity when we study "prophecy," so I thought I would start off by pointing out something with the vision of Daniel, chapter 9. The way I am going to point it out, initially, is via a poem that I wrote. I believe the poem will speak for itself:

“Understand The Vision” Dan.8:17

This poem is based on Daniel 8 & 9

By the River of Ulai, the prophet “looked up”

As he was seeking

And when he “lifted up his eyes,” Daniel heard

King Jesus speaking

Far down the corridors of time to the beast of

This our troubled day

We see the “Little Horn” is speaking peace as he

Forces the churches his way.

In the “latter times” of his kingdom when

Transgressions marked are “full.”

The time “appointed for the vision” on the

Mind of souls pull

“Dark sentences” embraced the King, and when

transgressors all “stood up”

For they only “stand” to destroy; to deceive

We dare not, ever, drink the cup

Daniel fainted at this little bit that he could

See while rapt in vision

Saying how “no one understood” it; as they held

Truth in derision

But the prophet understood the vision as the

Angel swiftly flew

For Daniel prayed and “made confession;” nothing

Less could ever do

In this vision of the end Gabriel spoke to Daniel

Past his praying and his tears

For Jeremiah, wrote before him of the long and

“Desolate years”

And gave Daniel understanding from “the books;” all

The “numbers of the days”

And we can have the understanding too; as we walk

These times in God’s sweet ways.

70 Weeks were “determined” for Jerusalem of old so

That everyone could see

How God will send His mighty angel when we need to

Know the prophecy

Daniel knew the secret of the walk we all must make

With Jesus in our day

He truly understood the “numbers of the years” for

Daniel learned to pray

“Consider The Vision” Daniel 9:23

[John317]

I see there are some topics regarding the book of Daniel in some way; but I thought I would like to start this topic to address it in a specific way.

Most of the other topics are digressed a bit into various sidelines, like sabbath,Ellen White, etc, for one example.

I was hoping to have this topic as something where only the book of Daniel is discussed, and only the Bible is used.

Excellent idea. Should be nice for a change. lol

Your poem contains the truth, Overaged. Thanks very much for sharing it with us.

[Overaged]

Daniel Notes

Quote:

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

There are many many exciting things noted in my poem; all taken from this one chapter of Daniel, and as this topic progresses, my intention will be to touch base on each one, looking at context, meaning, and application; using only the Bible.

I know that a lot of people see this chapter of Daniel as "prophecy," but The tetragrammaton (the four Hebrew letters which constitute the divine Name, YHWH) appears eight times in this chapter, and nowhere else in the book of Daniel; and so from this, and several other facts, I have concluded that chapter 9 goes much deeper than prophecy; and *applies* to each person in a very personal way.

Something is going on with God in this chapter; why else would the divine name be mentioned 8 times in chapter nine, and no times in any other chapter?

Daniel declares:

Quote:

" I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem." Dan 9:2)

Here, the prophet sets the example of study of the Scriptures to know what God says about the affairs alluded to by "the number of the years," and which Daniel did not just know; the text says that he "understood" the "number of the years." Daniel here points out a difference between just knowing something, and understanding it. An important principle for all Christians to live by.

Now, the "books" that Daniel was referring to, from which he "understood the number of the years," was actually referring to something out of Jeremiah 25:

Quote:

8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,

9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and

Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

The scriptures are all so connected, both Old Testament, and New Testament; it is all the same gospel by which we are saved; and to me, nowhere can this be more evident in scripture, than in the book of Daniel.

Note that Jesus said in the New Testament:

Quote:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand (Mat 25)

Now, here, we see again, that word "understand." Just as Daniel "understood" "the number" of the years mentioned in Bible prophecy, so, we too are to "understand," not just know the number 70.

So far, an understanding of visions and prophecies are intimately connected to reading of the scriptures. But, there is more.

Quote:

Daniel 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

We see now, that also in close and intimate connection with reading God's Word, to understand truth, Daniel "set his face" to The Lord God, to seek something, to seek an understanding, as in prayer.

Many see "The Lord's prayer," in the New Testament as the only way that God teaches

us how to pray; but as we will see in exploring the book of Daniel in future posts; God also teaches His people to pray through this amazing prophet of old.

I believe, as I stated in my poem above, (2nd verse):

Quote:

In the “latter times” of his kingdom when

Transgressions marked are “full.”

The time “appointed for the vision” on the

Mind of souls pull

We are on the precipice of these times when the vision of Daniel tugs at people's souls everywhere, and many are inquiring: How do we understand what is coming, and where we are headed. It is my prayer that this topic bless people with the confidence of the scriptures, and the "sure word of prophecy."

Quote:

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

It is only "the sure Word;" when, as Daniel and Jesus stated, we "understand" what has been written.

[John317]

I like your post here, Overaged. I look forward to reading more on the book of Daniel.

[phkrause]

Excellent poem OA.

Great posts. So far I agree with your points and thoughts. When I was living up in Mass near AUC, they had a professor there who taught Daniel and Revelation. He was a expert, for lack of a better word, on the book of Daniel. I think he'd be very proud of your posts.

[teresaq]

I agree. It looks to be quite insightful so far. :)

[12tribes]

Daniel 5:31

(31) And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

Why do you think it mentions his age?

2 Kings 24:12

(12) And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.

The year that Judah was taken captive is the year that Darius was born

[Overaged]

Part Two

As I mentioned above, in my last post:

Quote:

"Something is going on with God in this chapter; why else would the divine name be mentioned 8 times in chapter nine, and no times in any other chapter?"

I didn't even know the book of Daniel existed until I joined the Adventist Church; but I distinctly recall that as soon as I read chapter nine for the first time; I was very awestricken that God was personally speaking many eternal verities to me through this chapter; and later through the entire book of Daniel; it was all just too much for me to understand; but I did know beyond a doubt that God was not just speaking to me, but doing something to me, as I read these precious words:

Quote:

(Dan 9:9 [KJV]) To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

This "something that is going on with God" in this chapter, must have to do not only with prophecy; but with relationship to The King of Kings. In this chapter; King Jesus is speaking nationally, and internationally, and individually to all mankind. But even stooping as low as me, and speaking to me personally, in the midst of all this Bible prophecy! What could be the reason for this? I did not understand. It was totally overpowering; all I knew at that point was that I wanted to follow Jesus.

As we read through the book of Daniel it can be difficult at times to identify with the prophet of old, and the people and culture that he was associated with; it was all such a long time ago, and there are so many positions that work against "understanding this vision," in it's truest context; in it's full blaze of glory and majesty. Truly, there so are many eternal verities in the book of Daniel; that can help to bring that world of old where he lived and worked and died into sharp, decided focus for God's people, even today.

Daniel was a man who realized that the right relationship to the Father (and to Jesus) is sought in prayer; and by "books;" (as in reading of the Scriptures). Daniel, much like like John the Baptist, or Jesus, (see Luke 11:1), must have a distinctive insight into prayer flowing from his life and mission; which was to "understand the vision."

Daniel, chapter nine reveals the Bible keys to unlock the prayer secrets, the Bible study secrets, and the panorama of Bible prophecy, which in turn, leads to unlocking the great prophecies of the Bible for you & I today.

So far in this topic, we have briefly touched on Daniel 9:1-3); and with the next two verses we can continue now in our "considering the vision" as follows:

Quote:

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

Here, Daniel prays a prayer that is so radical, in comparison to most of the prayers heard in todays churches; or spoken by many of us today. The prophet indentifies closely with the people whom he is praying for by saying "we have sinned." Daniel, with heartfelt praise and loyalty to the Father, included himself as having sinned, just like everyone else, even though he was a true prophet, and christian. Daniel's self-righteousness was gone, because he truly wanted to "understand the vision." It was something that lived and breathed inside of the prophet; and over the 70 years captivity; "understanding the vision" had become a part of his very soul and integral to his God-appointed mission.

Recall with me please, that years after Daniel's time on earth was fulfilled; in response to the disciples’ question, Jesus reveals the Lord’s Prayer; according to the disciple's request:

Quote:

Luke 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

Here; as we "consider the vision" (see poem in 1st post here); of Daniel, chapter nine, the setting is a time of prayer; and of national events unfolding, a time of impending crises for God's people, according to Bible prophecy. In this vision; Daniel could recognize God's word unfolding before the word's eyes.

"Something is going on with God in His Word; and in His "children." (Gen 18:19, Dan 1:17, Rev 7:4). "Something is going on with God;" in a time where we each find heart-rending tragedy, soul-searching disasters, all marked by shocking world events never before heard of; except in Bible prophecy. It is not called "the sure word of prophecy" by the apostle for no reason. It is "sure;" because it is God who is working in us; and in the affairs of nations; using the same time-tested method in all ages; Old Testament, New Testament; it's all the same message as in the example set forth by the prophet Daniel:

(OLD TESTAMENT) Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

(NEW TESTAMENT) 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

God's Word was in the prophet Daniel. Daniel saw a call to prayer and the earnest, study of God's Word during everything from national crises, to personal trials. He "set his face to pray to the Lord." Daniel really wanted to know whatever God wanted to say.

Sometimes, when we see "innocent victims" in today's day and age, it is tempting to say: "where is God?" But speak personally to some of these; and that question disappears. I think of the nurse who first introduced me to Christ. She was getting a bad infection in the incisions and having trouble with the surgical drains the surgeons had placed there; and yet it didn't even seem to matter to her that this was the second breast removed for cancer, or that she was having all of these post-op complications and suffering. When I spoke to her over the phone during this time; she just kept saying: "I cry sometimes when I think just how good God is to me." Yes, she said she was afraid; but she just kept saying how she still prays for me every day; just like she did many years ago when I was badly burned. "Back in those days," she said, "I would go home from the hospital every night, praying all the way to my back door." This amazing Christian woman "set her face to pray to the Lord;" and not about herself, but about someone else; despite her own trials and pain.

Although he had suffered long for others' sins, enduring seventy years of captivity for the wrongs of his people, Daniel lived a godly life, and received signal honors and blessings from the Lord. "Signal" meaning "Any incitement to action." Daniel brings no accusations against anyone, pleads no sympathy for himself as a victim of others' wrongs, but classes himself with the rest, saying "We have sinned, and unto us belongs confusion of face." He acknowledges that they had not heeded the lessons God designed to teach them by their afflictions.

Something is going on with God and His people, in Daniel; and in today's day and age.

I did not join the Adventist Church, or give my heart to Jesus because of the denomination; orbecause of the teachings, but because of the book of Daniel; and how I experienced God speaking personally to me through this amazing Scripture.

Daniel's heart-felt confession pleads in Daniel 9:6

Quote:

"Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land."

Daniel knew something about "understanding the vision;" which most people just argue about today. But Daniel didn't take the time to argue about this with anybody. He just declared it. And he lived what he declared. Like John the Baptist. Like Jesus.

A time of studying God's Word. A time of prayer. A time of "hearkening unto the prophets."

This is where we are living today.

[teresaq]

Interesting, thanks.

Daniel 5:31

(31) And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

Why do you think it mentions his age?

2 Kings 24:12

(12) And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.

The year that Judah was taken captive is the year that Darius was born

[teresaq]

Quote:

Although he had suffered long for others' sins, enduring seventy years of captivity for the wrongs of his people, Daniel lived a godly life, and received signal honors and blessings from the Lord. "Signal" meaning "Any incitement to action."

Daniel brings no accusations against anyone, pleads no sympathy for himself as a victim of others' wrongs, but classes himself with the rest, saying "We have sinned, and unto us belongs confusion of face." He acknowledges that they had not heeded the lessons God designed to teach them by their afflictions.

This is a very good point. I know when I first read this way back in "the day" it tended to irritate me. Why would he claim any responsibility for what others had done? Decades later, I'm barely starting to pray the same prayer. Father forgive us...

Would you see Moses' and Paul's statements as companions to Daniel's prayers? Moses asked to be struck from God's book instead of abandoning the wayward Israelites. Paul said he would rather lose eternal life if that would somehow save his fellow hard-hearted Israelites.

I'm glad to know a little bit about you. How bad was the burn?

[Overaged]

This is a very good point. I know when I first read this way back in "the day" it tended to irritate me. Why would he claim any responsibility for what others had done? Decades later, I'm barely starting to pray the same prayer. Father forgive us...

[Overaged]

This is a good point. God mentions names, dates, and places in the book of Daniel so that we can confirm from history what He is saying to us through Daniel

[teresaq]

Wow OA!! It just goes to show it does not matter how much we know, how good our arguments might be, all that.... If we don't have the character, the right character through and through, we will never win one soul for Christ and heaven.

We may win them over to the right beliefs, maybe to the right church, with our tactics, but never to Jesus and heaven.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Thank you for sharing your story. :)

[phkrause]

OA that is one beautiful testimony. Praise the Lord.

[Overaged]

Wow OA!! It just goes to show it does not matter how much we know, how good our arguments might be, all that.... If we don't have the character, the right character through and through, we will never win one soul for Christ and heaven.

There have been some years that have passed by since this happened; too many of them wasted being the opposite to Daniel; although many genuine wrongs have been done to myself and my family at Church; I never thought of being like Daniel till I revisited the study of the book of Daniel for this topic.

Prophecy is integral to the book od Daniel; of course, but there is so much more!

I would be willing to bet that others reading this topic have equally good testimonies to share here. I may be gone most of the week; but I am praying that someone else will be able to also share a testimony within the context of the book of Daniel.

[John317]

So glad to read your wonderful testimony, Overaged. That's amazing how God led you to the SDA church and finally to meet your nurse again. Thanks so much for posting it.

[Overaged]

So glad to read your wonderful testimony, Overaged. That's amazing how God led you to the SDA church and finally to meet your nurse again. Thanks so much for posting it.

[skyblue888]

Very interesting testimony Over. Wow! Praise God! Thanks for sharing so much.

You asked: "I would love to know more of what Jesus was getting at in His use of this little word "let." How does it apply to us personally today, in terms of "understanding" the vision?

Daniel also said, "The wise shall understand." 12:10,3. And the Apostle Paul wrote, "Be ye not unwise, understanding what the will of the Lord is." Eph.5:17.

In the beginning God said, "Let there be light! And there was light." Gen.1:3.

"He spoke and it was done! He commanded and it stood fast!" Ps.33:9.

I would like to propose that those who rest in the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice for their acceptance with God, for pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, have had their ears opened (Ps.40:6; Isa.50:4,5) to hear the voice of Him whose word can renew the soul unto everlasting life, "Let the light of the knowledge of the glory (character) of God in the face of Jesus Christ shine in the darkened void of your hearts." 2 Cor.4:6.

The same voice that in the beginning commanded the light to shine out of darkness has commanded the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ to shine in the hearts of all who daily come to God just as they are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the all-sufficient merits of the world's Redeemer.

They hear the voice of His Word speaking to their soul in promise: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil.2:5.

And they respond by saying: Let it be to us according unto Your word. And it is immediately so in them!

It is the same voice they hear in the Ten Commandemts. They understand that every command proceeding out of the mouth of God is a promise because in it is the power, the very life of God by which the command may be fulfilled or the promise realized! He who by faith receives the Word receives the very life and character of God because "All the words of His mouth are with righteousness." Prov.8:8.

The life thus imparted is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God! Matt.4:4.

So every "let" that proceeds out of the mouth of God is a promise, a most positive promise of its own fulfilment for, as it is written,

"I the Lord speak righteousness." Isaiah 45:19,23.

"Let the peace of God rule in your heart." Jesus (the voice of God).

He who reads, "Let him understand."

Back to you Overaged.

What do you think?

sky

[ClubV12]

I heard someone say the other day that Uriah Smith was drinking from broken cisterns. That no new Adventist should even read his book. Granted Uriah made some mistakes, as a result, should his work be entirely thrown out now?

That we have "new light" on the matters of Daniel and need new understanding as to how it applies today. That Uriah Smith can't possibly add anything as it applies to this day and age.

"New light" on Daniel? Thats a bold statement. Daniel is for the "end of time". The thinking goes, that was NOT Ellen Whites time, that the time is today. So we must look at Daniel prophecies in the light of how they apply today, for this generation.

I'm not entirely convinced of this idea, just considering some possibilities. Trying to understand....

[skyblue888]

Most of what he wrote in that book is accurate. One thing he did not seem to grasp though at that time was that one cannot use the geographical method of interpretation in order to understand the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation which deal with last day events.

sky

[ClubV12]

We still see a lot of that today. Applying the prophecies to various countries, states even specific politicians!

I always cringe when I see George Bush tied to a prophecy... :)

[John317]

Quote:

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

I would love to know more of what Jesus was getting at in His use of this little word "let." How does it apply to us personally today, in terms of "understanding" the vision?

Jesus' word "let" is an imperative and therefore is to be received as a command by everyone who reads or hears Christ's words.

It's imperative that we understand and apply to our individual lives the visions that God gave to Daniel in chapters 7, 8 & 9.

[John317]

My own opinion is that we should keep reading Uriah Smith's book on D & R.

[John317]

The earth beast of Revelation 13 is the United States of America, but beyond that, I entirely agree with you that we can't tie the prophecies to literal geographical locations today. Uriah Smith was wrong to do that with respect to Turkey and Armageddon. He understood Armageddon to be a literal military battle. Roy Allen Anderson was probably the last SDA scholar to continue that view, although in his last book on D & R, Anderson combined the literal view with the spiritual.

[ClubV12]

My understanding of Amegedon is that it is the last great conflict that occurs during the last seven plagues. I hesitate to proclaim which plague because some of us have differing views on the exact order of things incurring in any given plague. But I think it's after the 5th plague.

Armegedon is largely a spiritual battle but may incorporate physical countries and real armies when it happens.

Is this close to the correct, present truth, understanding on the matter?