Letters to the Churches by M.L. Andreason

[doug yowell]

Club & Doug,

Have either of you read With Cloak & Dagger by H.H. Meyers? This background would help illustrate the influence of Walter Martin & Donald Barnhouse upon the GC leaders. Our people were desperate to avoid the cult tag. Martin had published The Rise of the Cults in 1955. Barnhouse was the founder & publisher of the popular Eternity magazine.

With Cloak & Dagger is published by Hartland Publications.

Our people had been living with the cult status for decades. We did not ask for Martin to keep us off the list. He came to that conclusion on his own and took a lot of heat from mainstream Christianity for doing so. Given the various reasons why the Christian world viewed us as a cult (the two issues discussed here were not the sole factors, in fact, no one really knew what SDA's oficially believed)it's impossible for me to believe that our leaders suddenly created a new and acceptable understanding of the atonement so that Martin and Barnhouse would find us "normal". It's a real stretch to conclude that this new and drastically different doctrinal position went totally undetected by every prominant (and otherwise)Adventist thinker excepting MLA.

I still consider (by the way, so did Walter Martin)F.D.Nichol to be the greatest SDA apologist of his day (with all due respect to the many others)and he did not support ML's concerns.And all this occurred at a time when the average Adventist in the pew knew their Bible better than the majority of the Christian pastors in the country.Our evangelistic efforts were very successful and our membership was quickly increasing. I see Andreason's charge as an indictment against all the dummies in Adventism not just the weak kneed leaders.

[Gordon1]

..highest levels of leadership, whom I will continue to support regardless. But I will not be forced, under any circumstances to abandon the truth..

Hi Club, This seems to be a conflicted position which you have voiced before. When the highest church leadership goes against Christ and the Truth, as prophesied in John 16:2...they shall put you out of the synagogues (congregations): yea, the time cometh, that whosever killeth you will think that he doeth God service"....then how does one remain loyal both to the leadership and to Christ? If persecution should fall upon a new interest we bring to church, where does our loyalty lie?

[Gordon1]

Yes Doug, the history may seem unreal, but have you read this thread or the book With Cloak & Dagger? Andreasen was not alone but he was the first voice to sound and so became the lightning rod. Protestant watchmen often seem alone because their boldness sets them apart where few dare to tread. Such a shame that Andreasen had to bear this hostile treatment as an old man with a life of dedicated church service.

[doug yowell]

Hi Club, This seems to be a conflicted position which you have voiced before. When the highest church leadership goes against Christ and the Truth, as prophesied in John 16:2...they shall put you out of the synagogues (congregations): yea, the time cometh, that whosever killeth you will think that he doeth God service"....then how does one remain loyal both to the leadership and to Christ? If persecution should fall upon a new interest we bring to church, where does our loyalty lie?

That's kind of a stretch, don't you think,Gordon? A disagreement that is over the nuances of a doctrine so subtle that only one guy picked up on it is the equivalent of that which was so open and plain that even the highest, most unbiased judge in the land saw thru the obvious lack of evidence in support of His guilt? Is it possible that Andreason's conviction that his view was right and that the GC's take was wrong was itself the cause of the ensuing conflict? Is it possible that his interpretation of the events were wrong and that his inability to recognize his error has resulted in 50+ years of suspicion and discord?

[Gordon1]

Doug, have you read this thread and the book With Cloak & Dagger by H.H. Meyers?

[ClubV12]

It's a valid question Gordon, and worthy of deep consideration.

Sister White talks about self supporting workers who may or may not have the blessing or support of the mainstream church structure. They can do a good, even great work, while STILL paying tithe and offerings to the mainstream SDA church. Still supporting them in spirit. Not bad mouthing them, not discouraging folks against them, not holding themselves up to a higher level. Perhaps they will start a "home church", hold evengelistic meetings, start vegetarian restaurants (hygenic restaurants Sister White calls them), do door to door work (like Paul did). Being separate from but spiritually a part of the "normal" SDA church.

I believe it's not only possible but I get the sense that many ARE doing that right now! Selp supporting Academies, self supporting hospitals employing healing methods as set forth in the SOP. Self supporting schools, perhaps similiar to the schools of the prophets? I've heard some regular SDA folks refer to them as "fanatics", I assumed they were. Now, I'm not so sure, I would like to pursue finding out more about who these people are. What are they really about? ARE they "fanatics"? Such an undertaking is bound to attract a few (or more) unbalanced folks and there may well be some fanatics within such an environment. I'm going to look into it, I think there is something there worth investigating.

The bible story of the "widows mite" has made a deep impression on me. She brought her meager offering to the synagoge, as corrupt as it was, to support the church of her day. And the Lord blessed her for doing so. I am anxious to find out more about what became of this humble follower of God in the new earth. I'd like to meet her, and give her a hug.

[Gordon1]

We are told the laymen will finish the work.

Why does she tell us this?

[ClubV12]

At some point the organized church, it's offices, it's schools, it's churches will not be able to operate. Home churches and such will be the only option.

As to layman finishing the work, I see in the Testimonies, particularly Vol 9, a serious call for the laymen to be doing the work NOW. The Pastors job is not to preach to the church, in fact, she says we should expect little of that, it's to teach the congregation how to reach the world! She says if 9/10th's of the effort made toward church members was made to reach the world, the work would be done quickly.

We've got several hundred members in my church, one Pastor! Those several hundred, or REPLACEMENTS for those several hundred, is that group of laymen who will finish the work.

Don't underestimate the power of those "replacements" who will be "newbies" in the church. While many long term members will grumble and complain about how unfit and untrained all those new folks are... :)

[skyblue888]

I have read With Cloak and Dagger many years ago but I lost that book. I wonder if it is available online.

sky

[ClubV12]

"Cloak and Dagger", link to the PDF file suitable for downloading the entire book.

http://temcat.com/03-Advent-H-History/Cloak-Dagger.pdf

Still, I have to ask, "1957" that was then, we do have today? What TODAY is the official position of the church on the questions Andreason, and this thread, bring up?

Is our OFFICIAL position, TODAY, watered down in some way as it concerns:

The nature of Christ.

The Sabbath.

The Spirit of Prophecy.

...and other troubling questions the book, QoD brings up.

[skyblue888]

Thank you for the link. :)

[skyblue888]

Here is an excerpt from the book, from the introduction:

"The late Donald G. Barnhouse read a copy of that Seventh day Adventist classic, Steps to Christ. This book has led innumerable people to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. Many servicemen during two world wars treasured its precious message which brought hope and comfort to their uncertain existence. It made quite an impression on Dr. Barnhouse; so much so that he gave the book prominent mention in his evangelical magazine Eternity, June 1950. Under the heading "How to Read Religious Books," he claimed that reading such a book with its "half-truths and satanic error" was akin to a worm on a hook, "the first bite is all worm, the second bite is all hook, that is the way the Devil works." It is not surprising then, that he referred to its author, Mrs. E. G. White, as "the founder of a cult."

Apparently, such a vicious attack on a church which claimed to be Christian provided no impediment to the growth of one of Protestantism's most popular magazines.* Such pronouncements evidently accorded with acceptable Christianity. For, were not Seventh-day Adventists just another cult? They were credited with believing that Jesus Christ was a sinner, and denying His completed work of salvation at the cross. They were legalists who believed in salvation by works, part of which was the keeping of the biblical Sabbath day. And, to cap it off, they had the temerity to claim that they were God's remnant church on whom God had bestowed the gift of prophecy! Yet, within six years, Dr. Barnhouse was able to declare:

“I should like to say that we are delighted to do justice to a much-maligned group of sincere believers, and in our minds and hearts take them out of a group of utter heretics to acknowledge them as redeemed brethren and members of the body of Christ.” (Eternity, September 15, 1956).

* Eternity magazine ceased publication while this book was being written. Shortly after, its one-time editor, Dr. Walter Martin, passed away.

Yes, he was referring to the Seventh-day Adventist Church! Our leaders were ecstatic. Adventists could now hold their heads high as Christendom extended their brotherly arms to welcome them into the fold.

What had brought about this dramatic change? Had Barnhouse seen the light, or had Adventism changed its "unchristian" views? Let Dr. Barnhouse provide some clues."

[CoAspen]

Okay, a fair warning, put me on ignore because I am going to state an opinion...in a round about way.....

2nd warning!!!!!

Does anyone remember the Shakespear play "Much ado about nothing"?

Warned you, don't blame me for reading this post!!!!

[doug yowell]

* Eternity magazine ceased publication while this book was being written. Shortly after, its one-time editor, Dr. Walter Martin, passed away.

When was Cloak and Dagger written and what year did Eternity cease publication?

[ClubV12]

CoAspen, an excellent point, and one thats bounced back and forth through out this thread. IS it much ado about nothing, as it concerns TODAYS beliefs???

...might be!

For me the lesson is, to learn from history, which will repeat itself. If not in the same manner, another pig with a different shade of lip stick.

I don't know Doug, maybe someone does.

[skyblue888]

In the book Cloak and Dagger, there is still some confusion about the atonement. Mrs. White made it clear that brother Crozier had the "true light" on the atonement, that Jesus did not begin the atonement until He ascended up on High by pleading before the Father the merits of His shed blood in behalf of sinners but especially in behalf of those who believe. The sacrifice was the condition for the atonement and that is why it is refered to as the "sacrificial atonement" which was complete but the atonement itself could not begin until Christ began His priestly ministry in the first apartment of the sanctuary above at His ascension and on the 22nd of October 1844 He entered the second apartment to begin the last phase of the atonement which involved an investigative jugement of the dead first and followed by the living at the end of the loud cry.

sky

*A.G. Daniells is said to have been president of the G.C. from 1901 to 1922 but in 1901 he was not president but chairman and in 1902 he assumed the position without the constitution and in 1903 he was officially elected but that was not done without annihilating the 1901 constitution which had eliminated the position.

[skyblue888]

Okay, a fair warning, put me on ignore because I am going to state an opinion...in a round about way.....

2nd warning!!!!!

Does anyone remember the Shakespear play "Much ado about nothing"?

Warned you, don't blame me for reading this post!!!!

Far from being a "much ado about nothing" it is dealing with the omega of apostasy

sky

[skyblue888]

I believe the book was published in the 1980s. That's when I read it.

Club, are you not reading it?

sky

[ClubV12]

I'vd just gleaned through it at this point, but I plan to read it thourghly in due time. I gotta a lot on my plate right now...

I'm not sure yet how all this ties in to an Omega event today, mostly because it was some 60 years ago.

[Gordon1]

Hi Club,

If the original methods interest you, then The Broken BluePrint by Vance Ferrell may have some appeal. It mainly pertains to the outpost system with its education & healing ministry as taught by EGW - how some put this in practice but it was eventually deemed unsuitable by the top levels.

It's also online at http://blueprintoutposts.org/brokenblueprint.aspx

[ClubV12]

Appreciate the link Gordon, I saved the PDF file for further review.

...good thing I'm retired, I can barely keep up with the learning curve and all the required reading.

The two PDF's look reasonably short and important. Mainly, I'v decided to put away all the "good books" (theres no end to them) until I finish reading the Testimonies and peruse additional EGW literature.

Someone asked me the other day if I was working on my thesis or something. No, just building a foundation. :)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

* Eternity magazine ceased publication while this book was being written. Shortly after, its one-time editor, Dr. Walter Martin, passed away.

When was Cloak and Dagger written and what year did Eternity cease publication?

Eternity magazine was published from 1950 to 1988.

I'm not sure about the publication date of With Cloak and Dagger. I'll do what I can to find out and post it here.

Added later: I have not yet seen a copyright date of With Cloak and Dagger, but all the evidence shows it had to've been published between late Oct. 1988 and early 1989.

[BobRyan]

In the book Cloak and Dagger, there is still some confusion about the atonement. Mrs. White made it clear that brother Crozier had the "true light" on the atonement, that Jesus did not begin the atonement until He ascended up on High by pleading before the Father the merits of His shed blood in behalf of sinners but especially in behalf of those who believe. The sacrifice was the condition for the atonement and that is why it is refered to as the "sacrificial atonement" which was complete but the atonement itself could not begin until Christ began His priestly ministry in the first apartment of the sanctuary above at His ascension and on the 22nd of October 1844 He entered the second apartment to begin the last phase of the atonement which involved an investigative jugement of the dead first and followed by the living at the end of the loud cry.

It all gets down to definitions.

For Calvinists "Atonement" is largely the "Atoning Sacrifice" - beyond that they have very little concept of the Work of Christ. Therefore when they hear Andreason talk about Atonement in heaven - they immediatetly go into scenarios about Christ having to "suffer more" in heaven so that Adventist Theology can be correct.

Conversly - Andreason apparently placed not part of the cross in his understanding of the term "Atonement" - for him atonement cannot even start until the cross is completed.

This is a wide open field of "inconsistent definitions for the SAME word" where people can jump in and "Talk past each other".

Meanwhile when we read Lev 16 on the subject of the Day of Atonement we see that it STARTS with the the selection and sacrifice of the "Lord's Goat" called "The sin offering" and it ends with the completed work of the High Priest.

All this slicing and dicing trying to cut out one part or the other from the term "Atonement" is not serving to make the Lev 16 point that God authored.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Hi Club,

If the original methods interest you, then The Broken BluePrint by Vance Ferrell may have some appeal.

Vance Ferrell has written some outstanding material on the Investigative Judgment, and he's also put together some excellent collections of Bible verses and EGW quotes on the Trinity. These are at the Loma Linda Branch of the Ellen G. White Estate.

[doug yowell]

It all gets down to definitions.

For Calvinists "Atonement" is largely the "Atoning Sacrifice" - beyond that they have very little concept of the Work of Christ. Therefore when they hear Andreason talk about Atonement in heaven - they immediatetly go into scenarios about Christ having to "suffer more" in heaven so that Adventist Theology can be correct.

Conversly - Andreason apparently placed not part of the cross in his understanding of the term "Atonement" - for him atonement cannot even start until the cross is completed.

This is a wide open field of "inconsistent definitions for the SAME word" where people can jump in and "Talk past each other".

Meanwhile when we read Lev 16 on the subject of the Day of Atonement we see that it STARTS with the the selection and sacrifice of the "Lord's Goat" called "The sin offering" and it ends with the completed work of the High Priest.

All this slicing and dicing trying to cut out one part or the other from the term "Atonement" is not serving to make the Lev 16 point that God authored.

in Christ,

Bob

An important point to notice.....in case anyone is paying attention.