A Heretical Baptist's Views on the Book of Daniel, Chapters 1 - 6

[JawgeFromJawja]

So let us begin over, looking at Daniel verse by verse, as suggested by Stan.

In a separate topic, I have listed other subjects I should like to explore with the forum.

Please stay on topic unless off topic comments are relevant.

Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

Dan 1:2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.

Dan 1:3 And the king spake unto Ashpenaz the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring certain of the children of Israel, and of the king's seed, and of the princes;

Dan 1:4 Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

Dan 1:5 And the king appointed them a daily provision of the king's meat, and of the wine which he drank: so nourishing them three years, that at the end thereof they might stand before the king.

Dan 1:6 Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:

Dan 1:7 Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego.

Dan 1:8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.

Dan 1:9 Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.

Dan 1:10 And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.

On first glance, the young men, Daniel (Belteshazzar)); Hananiah, (Shadrach); Mishael (Meshach); and Azariah(Abednego)might seem to be in a heap of trouble. But they have the favor and protection of God and of the Babylonians, from the king to the eunuch assigned to their nurture.

Dan 1:11 Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,

Dan 1:12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.

Dan 1:13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.

Dan 1:14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.

Dan 1:15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.

Dan 1:16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse.

Dan 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.

Dan 1:18 Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.

Dan 1:19 And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.

Dan 1:20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.

Dan 1:21 And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.

Daniel Chapter One sets the stage for the miracles and prophecies of The Book of Daniel, and reinforces the truth that God does indeed work in the affairs of mankind, both collectively and individually.

God's Blessings,

_________________________

JawgeFromJawja

Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

(Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)

[John317]

Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

Dan 1:2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.

Good morning, Jawge, at 3 o'clock in the morning here in California!!! We do keep strange hours don't we.

Let's check out why these things happened to God's holy city, Jerusalem.

The prophet Jeremiah had written:

Quote:

Jeremiah 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

And God had warned the people of Israel:

Quote:

2 Chronicles 7:19-22-- But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;

Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it [to be] a proverb and a byword among all nations.

And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?

And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

See also what God had told the children of Israel in Deut. 28: 58-68, as far back as 1400 BC.

2 Chronicles 36: 15-21 shows the tragic fulfillment of God's warning to the children of Israel:

Quote:

36:15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

v. 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till [there was] no remedy.

v. 17 Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave [them] all into his hand.

v. 18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all [these] he brought to Babylon.

v. 19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

v. 20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

v. 21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: [for] as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

Later, in Daniel 9: 2, Daniel would remember these words of the prophet Jeremiah:

Quote:

Jeremiah 29:10-- For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

[teresaq]

So far I am in agreement with you. Good start. BTW, I don't choose to be adversarial with you, nor treat you as a dangerous enemy.

I like this and am going to use it, if you don't mind.

Quote:

Please stay on topic unless off topic comments are relevant.

So let us begin over, looking at Daniel verse by verse, as suggested by Stan.

In a separate topic, I have listed other subjects I should like to explore with the forum.

Please stay on topic unless off topic comments are relevant.

...

On first glance, the young men, Daniel (Belteshazzar)); Hananiah, (Shadrach); Mishael (Meshach); and Azariah(Abednego)might seem to be in a heap of trouble. But they have the favor and protection of God and of the Babylonians, from the king to the eunuch assigned to their nurture.

...

Daniel Chapter One sets the stage for the miracles and prophecies of The Book of Daniel, and reinforces the truth that God does indeed work in the affairs of mankind, both collectively and individually.

God's Blessings,

_________________________

JawgeFromJawja

Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

(Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)

[John317]

Thank you, dgrimm. Do you have any points you would like to add about this chapter or part of Daniel?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

Dan 1:2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.

Good morning, Jawge, at 3 o'clock in the morning here in California!!! We do keep strange hours don't we.

Let's check out why these things happened to God's holy city, Jerusalem.

The prophet Jeremiah had written:

Quote:

Jeremiah 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

And God had warned the people of Israel:

Quote:

2 Chronicles 7:19-22-- But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;

Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it [to be] a proverb and a byword among all nations.

And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?

And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

See also what God had told the children of Israel in Deut. 28: 58-68, as far back as 1400 BC.

2 Chronicles 36: 15-21 shows the tragic fulfillment of God's warning to the children of Israel:

Quote:

36:15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

v. 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till [there was] no remedy.

v. 17 Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave [them] all into his hand.

v. 18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all [these] he brought to Babylon.

v. 19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

v. 20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

v. 21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: [for] as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

Later, in Daniel 9: 2, Daniel would remember these words of the prophet Jeremiah:

Quote:

Jeremiah 29:10-- For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

Yes. Israel had a covenant with God, a covenant they repeatedly broke. Throughout The Torah, their covenant was repeated over and over, along with the penalties for Israel's breaking of their covenant with God.

Highest regards,

[John317]

Yes. Israel had a covenant with God, a covenant they repeatedly broke. Throughout The Torah, their covenant was repeated over and over, along with the penalties for Israel's breaking of their covenant with God.

Do you think that's all there is to it-- nothing more than that?

Just a matter of an agreement? Why was the Sabbath so central a part of the agreement to begin with?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Yes. Israel had a covenant with God, a covenant they repeatedly broke. Throughout The Torah, their covenant was repeated over and over, along with the penalties for Israel's breaking of their covenant with God.

Do you think that's all there is to it-- nothing more than that?

Just a matter of an agreement? Why was the Sabbath so central a part of the agreement to begin with?

John, you know the answer you want. I know the answer you want. But it just is not Biblical. Prior to Horeb (Sinai) there was no Sabbath mandate for any ethnic group, country, nation, or institution of mankind on earth.

Best regards

[teresaq]

John, you know the answer you want. I know the answer you want. But it just is not Biblical. Prior to Horeb (Sinai) there was no Sabbath mandate for any ethnic group, country, nation, or institution of mankind on earth.

Best regards

At least none written that we know of. :)

[Aliensanctuary]

So, Israel was guilty of violating their Covenant, or Contract, with the LORD. That's no real surprise, since the Old Covenant was external, and had no power in itself to change a person's thoughts or behavior. The nation swung from loyalty and obedience to the Contract, to faithlessness and blatant disobedience to the LORD's commands, even whoring after man-made gods they could see and touch, instead of respecting their unseen God.

Israel, then, had to go into exile to a heathen nation to save it from itself. Instead of King of the Hill, they became a nation of servants. Must have been a humbling experience, thinking they were God's chosen people, but doing the dirty work of their heathen masters.

Perhaps Daniel was there to give his people hope for the future.

[BobRyan]

In Genesis 3 God said that "Sin was at the door" for Cain - but Genesis 4 (where Cain kills Abel) takes place BEFORE any statement about "thou shalt not murder".

Those who claim that the Bible is an exhaustive account of every word spoken and every doctrine known at each point in time as of each chapter have taken a very shallow pass through the text.

Genesis 4 shows us that the Ex 20 law against Murder WAS known.

In Genesis 7 and 8 we have the reference to Clean animals vs Unclean animals. Yet this term is not "defined" until Lev 11.

Obviously this look at content and context proves you cannot read the chapter and claim that other information that comes in with another one of Moses' books was not yet known to mankind.

When Moses tells us in Genesis 2:1-3 that God makes the 7th day a Holy Day - and in Ex 20:8-11 again God tells us that at the Gen 2 event He made the Seventh-day a Holy day - and that His Genesis 2 act alone makes it binding on mankind... we can either "turn a blind eye" to the Word of God - or accept it.

The same goes for Christ telling us in Mark 2:27 that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" and "mankind MADE for the Sabbath" - that this goes all the way back to Gen 2 - where we find the MAKING of both!

How great it is that BAPTISTs like D.L Moody freely admit this as well!!

John, you know the answer you want. I know the answer you want. But it just is not Biblical. Prior to Horeb (Sinai) there was no Sabbath mandate for any ethnic group, country, nation, or institution of mankind on earth.

Best regards

Suppose we EDIT the word of Christ so that they fit your suggestion above "The Sabbath was MADE for Jews not ISRAEL formed at SINAI for the Sabbath"..

But the Bible is not open for edit. So we cannot do that.

No wonder our Seventh-day BAPTIST friends were so eager to share this Bible truth with the then Sunday-keeping Adventists!

How wonderful that we did not then accuse them of "being evil" because they were willing to share this important bible truth with us!!

in Christ,

Bob

======================

Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath...shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship"

[teresaq]

I'm sorry Jawge. In looking back over the posts I see I got caught up in the derailment of your topic. I will try to watch that.

[color:#000099]So let us begin over, looking at Daniel verse by verse, as suggested by Stan.

In a separate topic, I have listed other subjects I should like to explore with the forum.

Please stay on topic unless off topic comments are relevant....

God's Blessings,

_________________________

JawgeFromJawja

Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

(Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.)

[BobRyan]

Dan 1:8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.

Dan 1:9 Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.

Dan 1:10 And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.

On first glance, the young men, Daniel (Belteshazzar)); Hananiah, (Shadrach); Mishael (Meshach); and Azariah(Abednego)might seem to be in a heap of trouble. But they have the favor and protection of God and of the Babylonians, from the king to the eunuch assigned to their nurture.

Dan 1:11 Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,

Dan 1:12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.

Dan 1:13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.

Dan 1:14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.

Dan 1:15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.

Dan 1:16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse.

Dan 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.

Dan 1:18 Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.

Dan 1:19 And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.

Dan 1:20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.

Dan 1:21 And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.

1. What was "defiling" about the "Kings meat" in vs "pulse" (Vegetables only).

2. Lev 11 shows us that Israel held to the Pre-sinai Clean vs unclean meat distinction mentioned in Genesis 7 and defined in Lev 11.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Yes. Israel had a covenant with God, a covenant they repeatedly broke. Throughout The Torah, their covenant was repeated over and over, along with the penalties for Israel's breaking of their covenant with God.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Do you think that's all there is to it-- nothing more than that?

Just a matter of an agreement? Why was the Sabbath so central a part of the agreement to begin with?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, you know the answer you want. I know the answer you want. But it just is not Biblical. Prior to Horeb (Sinai) there was no Sabbath mandate for any ethnic group, country, nation, or institution of mankind on earth.

I'm not looking for any particular answer from you. I am asking you what you think about it.

You say that there was no Sabbath mandate prior to Sinai, but is this actually true?

Let's take a closer look at the Bible.

Please turn to Exodus 16 and tell when the events in this chapter occurred. How long before Sinai did those things happen?

Can you find the verse that describes the first time God revealed the Sabbath to Moses and Israel?

[John317]

God said:

Quote:

Jeremiah 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Quote:

2 Chronicles 7:19-22-- But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;

Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it [to be] a proverb and a byword among all nations.

And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?

And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

Are we to believe that these things happened--- the utter destruction of Jerusalem and the horrible things described in 2 Chron. 7-- all because of the people's violation of the Lord's Sabbath, even though the Lord knew that His holy Sabbath day would disappear and be irrelevent in a matter of a few centuries?

It seems to me very likely that these things tell us there is something important to God about the Sabbath that people aren't picking up on.

[JawgeFromJawja]

So, Israel was guilty of violating their Covenant, or Contract, with the LORD. That's no real surprise, since the Old Covenant was external, and had no power in itself to change a person's thoughts or behavior. The nation swung from loyalty and obedience to the Contract, to faithlessness and blatant disobedience to the LORD's commands, even whoring after man-made gods they could see and touch, instead of respecting their unseen God.

Israel, then, had to go into exile to a heathen nation to save it from itself. Instead of King of the Hill, they became a nation of servants. Must have been a humbling experience, thinking they were God's chosen people, but doing the dirty work of their heathen masters.

Perhaps Daniel was there to give his people hope for the future.

Very good points.

[BobRyan]

In Matt 23 Christ said "Oh Israel - how I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not!... behold your house is left unto you desolate".

That statement made by Christ was a reference to the curse of Solomon spoken by inspiration from God when Solomon built the temple.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

So, Israel was guilty of violating their Covenant, or Contract, with the LORD. That's no real surprise, since the Old Covenant was external, and had no power in itself to change a person's thoughts or behavior. The nation swung from loyalty and obedience to the Contract, to faithlessness and blatant disobedience to the LORD's commands, even whoring after man-made gods they could see and touch, instead of respecting their unseen God.

Israel, then, had to go into exile to a heathen nation to save it from itself.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Very good points.

But that did not have to happen that way. It wasn't necessary. It happened that way because of Israel's refusal to allow God to change their hearts. God was willing to change them, and He appealed to them to allow Him to change them, but they were stubborn and rebellious. They largely refused to hear the prophets God sent them.

Also, it is not true that the Old Covenant was incapable of helping people to change. Under the OT, David changed and so did Isaiah and a good number of the other Israelites. It all depended on how they responded to God. But the Old Covenant itself was not at fault. It was the people who were at fault.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Yes. Israel had a covenant with God, a covenant they repeatedly broke. Throughout The Torah, their covenant was repeated over and over, along with the penalties for Israel's breaking of their covenant with God.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Do you think that's all there is to it-- nothing more than that?

Just a matter of an agreement? Why was the Sabbath so central a part of the agreement to begin with?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, you know the answer you want. I know the answer you want. But it just is not Biblical. Prior to Horeb (Sinai) there was no Sabbath mandate for any ethnic group, country, nation, or institution of mankind on earth.

I'm not looking for any particular answer from you. I am asking you what you think about it.

You say that there was no Sabbath mandate prior to Sinai, but is this actually true?

Let's take a closer look at the Bible.

Please turn to Exodus 16 and tell when the events in this chapter occurred. How long before Sinai did those things happen?

Can you find the verse that describes the first time God revealed the Sabbath to Moses and Israel?

Obviously, the events of Chapter 16 occurred before God's covenant with Israel at Sinai. How long before? The approximate time could probably be determined, but it was a relatively short while before Moses' presenting God's mandate for the Jews to keep the Sabbath. In Chapter 16, there is still no evidence of a commandment for Israel or any other ethnic group, nation, country, or institution to keep the Sabbath.

So you ask what my thoughts are on Exodus, generally, and as a documentation that Sabbath keeping is mandated for any people besides Israel? Well, the Torah (books of the Law) was written, or transcribed if you will, by Jews. The Torah is a Jewish document. The details written in Exodus would reflect Jewish theology, which requires keeping the Sabbath. I think it is rather awkward that the story of the provision of manna, and of the rules for collecting manna is in earlier chapters of Exodus than the story of God's giving His commandments for the Jews. Even so, there is still no documented mandate for gentiles to keep the Sabbath, except for gentiles living among the Children of Israel.

Again, let me point out that long established Jewish tradition is that the "Noachian Law" is all the Law mandated for gentiles. The seven articles of Noachian Law do not include Sabbath keeping. That tradition is compatible with the Torah's not requiring non-Jews to keep the Sabbath.

If you are interested, and you should be, details of that tradition and Jewish theology can be found on the site of Mechon Mamre and numerous other sites concerning Jewish theology.

Highest regards,

[John317]

Can you find the verse that describes the first time God revealed the Sabbath to Moses and Israel?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Obviously, the events of Chapter 16 occurred before God's covenant with Israel at Sinai. How long before? The approximate time could probably be determined, but it was a relatively short while before Moses' presenting God's mandate for the Jews to keep the Sabbath.

The events narrated in Exodus 16 were about one month before coming to Sinai.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

In Chapter 16, there is still no evidence of a commandment for Israel or any other ethnic group, nation, country, or institution to keep the Sabbath.

But can you find the verse that describes the first time God revealed the Sabbath to Moses and to Israel?

After Genesis 2: 1-3, what is the first verse that clearly mentions the Sabbath?

It is Exodus 16: 23, isn't it?

But when you read that verse, it is obvious that both Moses and the people already knew about the Sabbath. It is not the first time they had heard of it.

Notice verse 28 says God asked Moses, "How long do you [that is, the Israelites] refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"

This is proof that the Israelites have known for some time about God's commandments and His laws but have refused to obey them as they should.

Exodus 18: 16 further confirms the knowledge of God's law and His statutes before they were given at Sinai--

When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make [them] know the statutes of God, and his laws.

But as regards Exodus 16: 28, surely if God had just told the people about the Sabbath, He wouldn't be asking them how long it would be before they kept it. That would not be reasonable.

Now go to Exodus 16: 4--

Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

This proves that the giving of the manna was a test to see if the people would obey God's law. So they must have known God's law or they could not very well be tested on it.

And notice the Israelites are being tested on a particular part of God's law-- that which has to do with time. The Sabbath, of course.

What do you think so far, Jawge? :-)

[John317]

.. I think it is rather awkward that the story of the provision of manna, and of the rules for collecting manna is in earlier chapters of Exodus than the story of God's giving His commandments for the Jews.

It would be awkward for sure, of course, if we come to it with certain preconceptions, such as that before Sinai, the children of Israel knew nothing of the Sabbath or of the commandments of God.

If you check out Exodus 5: 5 closely, you will see evidence that the people of Israel knew of the Sabbath even before they left Egypt.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: John317

Can you find the verse that describes the first time God revealed the Sabbath to Moses and Israel?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Obviously, the events of Chapter 16 occurred before God's covenant with Israel at Sinai. How long before? The approximate time could probably be determined, but it was a relatively short while before Moses' presenting God's mandate for the Jews to keep the Sabbath.

The events narrated in Exodus 16 were about one month before coming to Sinai.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

In Chapter 16, there is still no evidence of a commandment for Israel or any other ethnic group, nation, country, or institution to keep the Sabbath.

But can you find the verse that describes the first time God revealed the Sabbath to Moses and to Israel?

After Genesis 2: 1-3, what is the first verse that clearly mentions the Sabbath?

It is Exodus 16: 23, isn't it?

But when you read that verse, it is obvious that both Moses and the people already knew about the Sabbath. It is not the first time they had heard of it.

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

John, Moses is telling Israel that this is what God said. So, if Israel knew of God's requirement for them, why did Moses inform them, in the same verse 23, "To morrow is the rest of the Holy Sabbath unto the Lord --- " . That statement would be rather redundant if Israel already knew of God's requirement for them. Moses does not refer to some remote past time - see verses 4, 5, and 6:

Exo 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Exo 16:5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

Exo 16:6 And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the land of Egypt:

Notice verse 28 says God asked Moses, "How long do you [that is, the Israelites] refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"

This is proof that the Israelites have known for some time about God's commandments and His laws but have refused to obey them as they should.

This is proof? No such of a thing! In verse 27, they began ignoring the commandment of God, leading to the reproof of verse 28.

Exodus 18: 16 further confirms the knowledge of God's law and His statutes before they were given at Sinai--

When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make [them] know the statutes of God, and his laws.

But as regards Exodus 16: 28, surely if God had just told the people about the Sabbath, He wouldn't be asking them how long it would be before they kept it. That would not be reasonable.

No, it wouldn't. Israel had already begun, but only just begun, ignoring God's commandment by verse 27. Why are you ignoring that verse?

Now go to Exodus 16: 4--

Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

This proves that the giving of the manna was a test to see if the people would obey God's law. So they must have known God's law or they could not very well be tested on it.

No, it does not. God was saying that He would test them on the commandments about manna, which had not been given by verse 4.

And notice the Israelites are being tested on a particular part of God's law-- that which has to do with time. The Sabbath, of course.

What do you think so far, Jawge? :-)

Please do not take offence, but I think that you tend to over read and misread Scripture. We all do to some extent, especially when discussing the doctrines of our particular institutions.

Agape

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

.. I think it is rather awkward that the story of the provision of manna, and of the rules for collecting manna is in earlier chapters of Exodus than the story of God's giving His commandments for the Jews.

It would be awkward for sure, of course, if we come to it with certain preconceptions, such as that before Sinai, the children of Israel knew nothing of the Sabbath or of the commandments of God.

If you check out Exodus 5: 5 closely, you will see evidence that the people of Israel knew of the Sabbath even before they left Egypt.

John, did not you approach Exodus 5: 1 - 5 with a preconception?

The "rest" Pharaoh speaks of obviously refers to rest from toiling for Pharaoh, as shown by verses 4 and 5. Such is clear enough in KJV, but even clearer in NIV and The New English Bible. Nothing is even remotely mentioned of the Sabbath:

Exo 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.

Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Exo 5:3 And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.

Exo 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.

Exo 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.

[John317]

John, did not you approach Exodus 5: 1 - 5 with a preconception?

The "rest" Pharaoh speaks of obviously refers to rest from toiling for Pharaoh, as shown by verses 4 and 5. Such is clear enough in KJV, but even clearer in NIV and The New English Bible. Nothing is even remotely mentioned of the Sabbath:

Exo 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.

Other Bible scholars long before me also observed the same thing I am telling you. So it has nothing to do with any preconceptions on my part.

The great Bible commentators, Adam Clarke and Henry Matthews, and many others, also believed that the Sabbath was known and kept between the Fall of Adam and the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

Have you heard of J. Veron McGee? He had the "Thru the Bible" radio program. I think he was a Baptist. Anyway, he also taught that the Sabbath was known and observed before the Exodus. All those non-SDA men give Bible evidence as their reason for believing this.

Ex. 5: 5 uses the very same word that is used on Gen. 2: 2 for God's resting on the first Sabbath.

It is Strongs#7673.

What Pharaoh said to Moses was, literally, "you make them sabbatize from their labors."

Moses was carrying on a Sabbath reform among the ancient Iraelites. They had forgotten all about God and the Sabbath during all those years of Egyptian slavery, and Moses was teaching them about God and His holy day.

F. C. Gilbert, a Hebrew who had studied to become a rabbi, has written about Exodus 5: 5 in connection with the Sabbath.

See his book:

http://temcat.com/L-1-adv-pioneer-lib/FCGILBER/MESSIAH%20IN%20HIS%20SANCTUARY.PDF

I found it interesting to notice also that the film The Ten Commandments mentions that the Hebrews were keeping the Sabbath in Egypt just before the Exodus. So the screen-writers of that film had done their homework.

[John317]

I bought J. Vernon McGee's commentary on Daniel and have read parts of it. It is pretty good, although of course he teaches that Antiochus Epiphanes IV was the little horn power of Daniel 8. Are you familiar with this book?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, did not you approach Exodus 5: 1 - 5 with a preconception?

The "rest" Pharaoh speaks of obviously refers to rest from toiling for Pharaoh, as shown by verses 4 and 5. Such is clear enough in KJV, but even clearer in NIV and The New English Bible. Nothing is even remotely mentioned of the Sabbath:

Exo 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.

Other Bible scholars long before me also observed the same thing I am telling you. So it has nothing to do with any preconceptions on my part.

The great Bible commentators, Adam Clarke and Henry Matthews, and many others, also believed that the Sabbath was known and kept between the Fall of Adam and the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

Have you heard of J. Veron McGee? He had the "Thru the Bible" radio program. I think he was a Baptist. Anyway, he also taught that the Sabbath was known and observed before the Exodus. All those non-SDA men give Bible evidence as their reason for believing this.

Ex. 5: 5 uses the very same word that is used on Gen. 2: 2 for God's resting on the first Sabbath.

It is Strongs#7673.

What Pharaoh said to Moses was, literally, "you make them sabbatize from their labors."

Moses was carrying on a Sabbath reform among the ancient Iraelites. They had forgotten all about God and the Sabbath during all those years of Egyptian slavery, and Moses was teaching them about God and His holy day.

F. C. Gilbert, a Hebrew who had studied to become a rabbi, has written about Exodus 5: 5 in connection with the Sabbath.

See his book:

http://temcat.com/L-1-adv-pioneer-lib/FCGILBER/MESSIAH%20IN%20HIS%20SANCTUARY.PDF

I found it interesting to notice also that the film The Ten Commandments mentions that the Hebrews were keeping the Sabbath in Egypt just before the Exodus. So the screen-writers of that film had done their homework.

John, you are just about as much a nerd as I. Take that statement as a complement.

I did look up Strong's # 7683. My reference, the Strong's Numbers Dictionary in e-Sword, says the Scripture is derived from "a primitive root", "shaw bath", meaning "to repose". While the "Sabbath" originally may have been derived from # 7683, the literal and immediate translation seems to have referred to "rest" in the physical, not spiritual sense.

Are you familiar with Mechon Mamre? It is a Jewish foundation headquartered and located in Israel. I came across it only some two weeks ago, and it seems to be loaded with reliable and true Hebrew scholasticism. As provided by Mechon Mamre, the Exodus 5: 1 - 5 passage in Hebrew is practically the same as the KJV when translated into English.

I now plan to dig deeper into Jewish rabbinic work relevant to the Sabbath, particularly as it pertains to we goyim. Opinions to the contrary, goy and goyim are not necessarily derogatory labels. Look that up on --- the web ---.

WWW