A Heretical Baptists Views on General and Adventist Theology

[JawgeFromJawja]

Is George Collier King a heretic?

You better believe it. If the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) knew of my radical theology, there would be a loud outcry to expunge my name from all SBC records dating from 1947, the year I was baptized.

Me and The Bible

From 1947, at age 9, until my graduation from The University of Georgia in 1960, I was a devout fundamentalist Baptist. My belief system began to crumble at age 15, when I did a very pious thing - I read The King James Version of The Bible cover to cover for my first time. You know, there are some very disturbing things in that ponderous Old Tome. Brutal violence. Contradictions. Yes, contradictions are there, and if you want a challenge to your faith, do a Google on "Bible contradictions" and similar subjects. If you meet that challenge, your faith will grow. But WARNING - the experience may be too much for your faith. Described events that are totally contrary to the simple science every grade school child knows, such as the Sun does not move relative to Earth. Evil behavior attributed to God or to His will. Incompatible doctrines. And on and on.

It's all there, in its inconsistent, brutal glory. But The Bible is the Judeo-Christian Scripture, and when my faith was re-kindled around 1979, my view of The Bible had changed: The Bible is inspired by God, but it is not God's revelation of Himself to mankind. It is a story that unfolded from circa 600 BC until circa 100 AD, a span of 700 years. It is the story of a middle eastern culture's search for God, revealing their evolving perception of God. It is an aggregate of 66 (or more, according to some) books reflecting one culture's deep thought, meditation, and teaching about God. As such, it continues to be a useful compendium of the beliefs and commentaries on the beliefs of classical ancient Judaism and early Christianity. However, as such, The Bible is very confusing.

Personally, I deeply believe that The Bible can be used for individual doctrinal study and personal inspiration when it is read under the guidance of The Holy Spirit. That the Bible is confusing and self contradictory is not bad or unfortunate. Those very characteristics make it a fertile source for The Holy Spirit to work with the individual Jew or Christian.

Some two years ago, I began reading The Bible aloud cover to cover to an attractive, charming Adventist lady of my acquaintance. She never had explored The Bible in that systematic way.

This is no criticism of her or any other person practicing an organized religion who has never studied The Bible that way. Uncountable people of all Judeo-Christian persuasions have never read the whole Bible. Many of them of weaker faith should not. But one’s faith can finally begin to grow, based on a firmer foundation, with better knowledge of The Scripture of Jews and Christians. That little Adventist lady called a temporary halt to our Bible reading when we finished Genesis. The sin, sex, brutality, deception, and murder had become too much for her. After a few weeks, I was able to convince her to resume our trek in The Bible.

Me and Atheism

Honest atheism is one good starting point on which to build a strong faith in God. There are other good starting points. Buddhists teach that one’s mental cup needs to be empty in order to truly learn anything new. With a starting position of not believing in God, it is very easy for the honest observer and inquirer to develop a belief in and trust of The Supreme Being. For the rabid atheist with deep seated negative emotional disturbances, it may be impossible in this life to develop a relationship with God. That type of atheist is mind dead.

Even while taking elective courses in religion my senior year at the University of Georgia, I was drifting rapidly into atheism. Fundamentalist Christianity, based on a belief in Bible inerrancy, was no longer tenable for me. None of it made sense any longer. I went into medical school, medical residency, and involuntary Army service as a professing atheist. Looking back, God was always there.

My Greatest Life Lesson

God would not leave me alone. He stalked me. When Scott Peck, author of The Road Less Traveled, found himself stalked by God, he was not at all happy. He wrote that he loudly said,

“Oh, s_ _ t! By the late 1970s, God was becoming an integral part of my life and medical practice. Valuing my atheist persona, I was anything but thrilled. But I began to see miracles and the power of God in my life and in the lives of my patients. Once miracles are noted for what they truly are, they become more and more obvious. To shorten this all too lengthy tale, a quote from Shakespere is appropriate:

There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio,

Than are dreampt of in your philosophy.

--- Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act I

Eventually, starting some subjects simultaneously, I should like to initiate topics on the following subjects:

1. The Sabbath

2. The investigative judgment

3. Universal salvation

4. Reincarnation

5. Creation and evolution

6. The Kingdom of God

7. The Book of Revelation

8. The state of the dead

9. And others

Agape,

[BobRyan]

My suggestion is a dedicated thread to each subject - whenever you have time.

Meanwhile - I am certainly glad you found your way out of atheism and into Salvation in Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

... - the experience may be too much for your faith. Described events that are totally contrary to the simple science every grade school child knows, such as the Sun does not move relative to Earth. Evil behavior attributed to God or to His will. Incompatible doctrines. And on and on.

The narrative in which that story is told is not looking at the event from a scientific, objective viewpoint. Rather, it is looking at things from a subjective viewpoint-- the way humans experience it. We experience it as the "sun going down" or as "the sun setting."

When we say "the sun set," or "the sun is going down," no one tells us that our science is wrong. Why not? Because everyone knows we're describing it as we experience it, not as it actually happens from a scientific viewpoint. The Bible is the same way.

In any story, the writer commonly speaks of the sun going down or the sun setting-- as, for instance, a well-known story by William Faulkner-- but I have never heard anyone announcing that the writers are ignorant of the fact that the sun stands still and the earth moves around the sun.

Even an historian might write, "When the sun set that night, the armies of the South were well prepared for battle." Would anyone think to educate the historian about what really happens in regards to the relationship between the sun and the earth? Of course not. Then why assume that the Bible got it wrong because it talks about the sun standing still? From the viewpoint of humans watching the event, that is exactly what happened.

In sum, the Bible is not a scientific text-book. It is true, but it does not describe things in a scientific manner. It is a mistake to expect it to. That is not its purpose.

[John317]

It's all there, in its inconsistent, brutal glory.

Yes, and aren't we glad? Would we really want God to hide the truth from us?

What is the truth? The truth is that human nature apart from God is frightfully inconsistent, brutal, sinful, evil, etc. And of course this is reflected even in the best of characters in the Bible story.

It is certainly reflected in our lives if all of our lives were told truthfully.

Someone has compared the Bible to a medical text-book which contains all sorts of horrid pictures. Would anyone think to remove all those terrible pictures? No. Why not? Because the context of the pictures in the medical text-book is healing.

That is the same with the Bible. The context of all those brutal, violent, sinful "word pictures" in the Bible is healing. Salvation is, in fact, healing.

[John317]

...Eventually, starting some subjects simultaneously, I should like to initiate topics on the following subjects:

1. The Sabbath

Do you mean in that order?

If so, what are your thoughts on Gen. 2: 1-3 ?

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

[JawgeFromJawja]

My suggestion is a dedicated thread to each subject - whenever you have time.

Meanwhile - I am certainly glad you found your way out of atheism and into Salvation in Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, my take on that phase of my life is that I remained saved, and had been since accepting Christ at age 9. I was just confused. The parable of the single lost sheep out of 100 bears this out. I was still Christ's sheep, and He went after his own. I did not find my way back home - God went after me and found me.

Salvation is a gift:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God does not take back his gifts:

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:29 Contemporary English Version (CEV) God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or forget about the people he has chosen.

Rom 11: 29 New English Bible For the gracious gifts of God and His calling are irrevocable.

Rom 11: 29 NIV For God's gifts and His calling are irrevocable.

Highest regards,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

...Eventually, starting some subjects simultaneously, I should like to initiate topics on the following subjects:

1. The Sabbath

Do you mean in that order? Not necessarily. But in separate topics!

If so, what are your thoughts on Gen. 2: 1-3 ?

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Lemme initiate my Sabbath topic now, separately.

Highest regards,

[BobRyan]

My suggestion is a dedicated thread to each subject - whenever you have time.

Meanwhile - I am certainly glad you found your way out of atheism and into Salvation in Christ.

[fccool]

George,

I enjoyed the post. It's great to learn about you, even a little bit.

Concerning your post, I think it's important to know that "heresy" etymologically mean "choice". It picked up it's religious context in 3rd century. Heresy should not be mixed with apostasy. It simply means one's choice to disagree with a certain dogma.

I believe that Atheism is generally a great beginning and intermediary point. In my experience there are three stages of religious experience:

1) Indocrtination or Infatuation Religion

The one that people get into purely based on certain feeling or surface understanding. Some people get stuck in that phase and mechanically support it and live in it for the rest of their lives... without really questioning their beliefs.

2) Deep questions followed by Rejection

Once a person confronts some deep questions about certain beliefs, and avalanche of deconstruction follows, that eventually causes one to swing the other way due to either seeming illegitimacy, or plain falsehood of certain beliefs that are followed.

Once again, some may get stuck in this opposite side, and live out the rest of their lives arguing from the opposite, and the fact that they don't really know, while believing only scientific visible.

3) Deeper understanding

Generally, this stage comes with certain pre-existing knowledge retained from phase #1, and unanswered questions that mingle with phase #2, which causes one to reconsider certain belief and understand beliefs held in #1 from a different perspective.

[Gerr]

Salvation is a gift:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God does not take back his gifts:

God certainly does not/will not take back His gift from one who receives it. But does God force His gift on someone who rejects it? Does He force someone to enter heaven who does not respond to the invitation to come i?

ESV | Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

ESV | Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

[Overaged]

Well; regardless of what you say; I don't think you are any kind of "heretic;" you are just moving out and about from the SB circle. A Christian is a Christian Don't have to be a Baptist, or an Adventist to be one.