Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted August 25, 2011 Members Posted August 25, 2011 why it is that at funerals everyone acts like the dead person is going to be amongst the saved? I don't want to get into the "judge not, lest ye be judged by the same measure" litany... I'm just wondering how it is that all these "wonderful" people are all going to be in heaven. Doesn't the Bible say that less will be saved than more? "I never knew you"....the words of Jesus.. I wonder who He never knew, even though they were pillars of the church(es). Do we **really** know some who are saved and some who are not? The only ones I am sure of are Enoch, Elijah, and Moses. Does being a prophet(ess) automatically ensure salvation? Well...here's another topic that will dwindle and die... I keep trying, but I guess my interests don't align with those here. And at times I'm too outspoken.. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 25, 2011 Administrators Posted August 25, 2011 I have often noted that phenomena at funerals. Other than good humored comments about the deceased "idiosyncrasies", I do not recall a funeral for someone deemed unworthy or unfit to make it to heaven. Everyone at least gets the benefit of the doubt. At funerals we all seem to be universalists! Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
miz3 Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 why it is that at funerals everyone acts like the dead person is going to be amongst the saved? I don't want to get into the "judge not, lest ye be judged by the same measure" litany... I'm just wondering how it is that all these "wonderful" people are all going to be in heaven. Doesn't the Bible say that less will be saved than more? "I never knew you"....the words of Jesus.. I wonder who He never knew, even though they were pillars of the church(es). Do we **really** know some who are saved and some who are not? The only ones I am sure of are Enoch, Elijah, and Moses. Does being a prophet(ess) automatically ensure salvation? Well...here's another topic that will dwindle and die... I keep trying, but I guess my interests don't align with those here. And at times I'm too outspoken.. I have often wondered that too. Every funeral I have ever attended the general tone was that this was a good person and we will see them in heaven. This always struck me as not being true not because of the individual case (because I don't know that) but it is the overwhelming number of cases as whole that are being saved. How can every single person I know in some way whose funeral I attended to a person be saved. Those are just terrific odds. If that were to be true then why are not people lining up to get to know me. You know miz3 then when you die you'll be saved. This correlation just cannot be true. The Bible disputes such foolish thinking. I have come to the conclusion that in general it is just too painful for humans to face the fact that the person they are burying would not be in heaven. So we only dwell on the "good" things about that person. This helps us to avoid having to deal with "double" pain, not having them with us on earth anymore and also dealing with the possibility of not having them with us in heaven as well. I am open to other explanations. Good question rudywoofs. Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I was raised Catholic. At every funeral i have ever attended as a Catholic and later as an adventist, it has always been the same. All the deceased are with the Lord. And yet according to the same church, there are only a few who have been declared "saints" by the pope. Only saints can go to heaven and yet at every funeral the priest declares that soul to be in heaven with the Lord and therefore a saint! At the same time the same church teaches that some catholics go to purgatory and some directly to hell. Go figure! :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 25, 2011 Administrators Posted August 25, 2011 This brings to mind something I thought about posting awhile back. You know how we as Adventists sometimes refute the "granny's up in heaven smiling down on us now" sort of theology. We typically say that would be cruel to put someone in heaven where they would know their loved ones were suffering down here. How would that make it a happy place? And we always look forward with great hope and expectation of being reunited at the resurrection with everyone near and dear to us. Well, the thought has been troubling me for sometime now of how we would feel after Jesus comes and we discover some of our dearest friends and family did not make it. And under our theology we expect to be witnesses to their final destruction. So our last memory, quite literally burned into our memory is that we are eternally separated from them because we saw them torched before our very eyes. How long would it take for the memory of that to fade so that we could truly be happy in heaven? How will heaven be a happy place with all the ones we miss? It's no wonder we usher everyone into the grave as only a portal to heaven! It helps us avoid ugly truths and delay facing the inevitable fate of many we hold near and dear, including perhaps ourselves. Yes, we are all closet universalists when it comes to those we want to be with through eternity. We are only anti-universalists for those we expect or want eternal damnation for, the ones we really didn't like or don't really know here anyway. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
miz3 Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 This brings to mind something I thought about posting awhile back. You know how we as Adventists sometimes refute the "granny's up in heaven smiling down on us now" sort of theology. We typically say that would be cruel to put someone in heaven where they would know their loved ones were suffering down here. How would that make it a happy place? And we always look forward with great hope and expectation of being reunited at the resurrection with everyone near and dear to us. Well, the thought has been troubling me for sometime now of how we would feel after Jesus comes and we discover some of our dearest friends and family did not make it. And under our theology we expect to be witnesses to their final destruction. So our last memory, quite literally burned into our memory is that we are eternally separated from them because we saw them torched before our very eyes. How long would it take for the memory of that to fade so that we could truly be happy in heaven? How will heaven be a happy place with all the ones we miss? It's no wonder we usher everyone into the grave as only a portal to heaven! It helps us avoid ugly truths and delay facing the inevitable fate of many we hold near and dear, including perhaps ourselves. Yes, we are all closet universalists when it comes to those we want to be with through eternity. We are only anti-universalists for those we expect or want eternal damnation for, the ones we really didn't like or don't really know here anyway. Good points Tom! Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Depends. Will that fire come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked or will it be triggered by the wicked themselves? One thing I do believe is that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. (G.C.36) "I was shown that God's judgments would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G.W. At the end of the thousand years the unsaved of all ages will agree to accuse Satan and his evil angels of being responsible for their being lost eternally. They will turn upon them with the fury of demons. (G.C.672) I believe this gigantic battle and struggle for Satan and his evil angels to stay alive as long as possible and the unsaved's determination to make them suffer as much as possible will cause the earth to tremble and volcanos to erupt one more time. This is how the wicked will destroy themselves in the end. Of course the language of the Bible is that this fire will come from God out of heaven but only in the sense that God will not interfere just as He won't interfere at the time of the sixth plague when the wicked shall turn upon the false shepherds and tear them to pieces. (G.C.655,6) And I doubt the redeemed will be watching. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I guess since we cannot technically judge who did or didn't make it, the thinking is ya gotta make a call one way or the other. I reckon the family members are hoping for the best.... We are told "death bed" conversion is rare, but we can't rule it out one way or the other. The thief on the cross being one example of that. Of course, there was more than one thief, I can't see for sure what became of the other guys. I heard an interview with some general in Iraq who made a comment about "soldiers being in heaven when they die". He said he didn't believe that, but never clairified excatly what he did believe. I thought, well he's onto something, he's got it half right at least. How would you approach the question amongst grieving loved ones? Neutral ground would be comments along the order of the person being in God's hands. Personally I have thought about it and would like who ever gave my eulogy to "preach or teach" the Adventist view on the state of the dead. Honoring my last request to get the message out! That those gathered, christians or not, would understand the issue in the same way I did. Not drawing a conclusion as to my fate one way or the other, but letting the matter rest in God's hands. While I sleep and await my fate. I understand what your saying on the fire from heaven thing Sky, but I won't rule out the possibility that the fire comes directly from God. To protect His the Kingdom and as the end of all things. Either way, I don't see a conflict with that in Sister White's comment concerning the wicked. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 At funerals we all seem to be universalists! I think that holds true the same way at the time of the resurrection. Only the designation will be "saved". And I do wonder what the need for a resurrection if a person either has been raptured before the end, or you go to heaven when you die. "Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:9-10 NLT God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators John317 Posted August 25, 2011 Moderators Posted August 25, 2011 How would you approach the question amongst grieving loved ones? Neutral ground would be comments along the order of the person being in God's hands. Personally I have thought about it and would like who ever gave my eulogy to "preach or teach" the Adventist view on the state of the dead. Honoring my last request to get the message out! That those gathered, christians or not, would understand the issue in the same way I did. Not drawing a conclusion as to my fate one way or the other, but letting the matter rest in God's hands. While I sleep and await my fate. Those are great thoughts, Club. I feel the same way. We all await God's decision. My father once gave the eulogy for one of his favorite aunts, and many of the people in attendance were not SDA or even Christian. My father's talk had almost entirely to do with what the Bible teaches about death and resurrection. He said nothing about his aunt's expectations of being among the saved. It was clear from what he said that he was leaving her in God's loving, wise hands. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
olger Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I have often noted that phenomena at funerals. Other than good humored comments about the deceased "idiosyncrasies", I do not recall a funeral for someone deemed unworthy or unfit to make it to heaven. Everyone at least gets the benefit of the doubt. At funerals we all seem to be universalists! :) Well spoken Sir. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.