Ellen White on Sodomitish Practices and Impurity

[John317]

There are those among us who are teaching falsely that the sin of Sodom which caused its destruction was not homosexuality but was selfishness. This is a subtle form of denial that homosexuality is not sinful. I saw this argument being made in the gay churches I attended as far back as 1970-1973. I never imagined that it would soon be argued in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. But since 1973, our church has undergone a remarkable change-- to the point where some of our own pastors and leading theologians are advocating the acceptance of homosexual practice as not sinful before God.

The following writings by Ellen White show clearly that when she speaks of "Sodomitish practices," she is talking about sexual immorality, not the sin of neglecting the poor and needy. 2 Peter 2: 6-9 and Jude 7 make this abundantly clear also.

Jude 7--Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for neglecting the poor. Virtually every city on the planet neglects the poor. But God chose to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why? Because the selfishness and greed of the people led them on to the wickedness that resulted in their attempted rape of the angels of God.

Quote:

16. Homosexuality [THE 1977 ANNUAL COUNCIL

OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH VOTED

THAT "GROSS SEXUAL PERVERSIONS, INCLUDING

HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICES, ARE RECOGNIZED AS

A MISUSE OF SEXUAL POWERS AND A VIOLATION

OF THE DIVINE INTENTION IN MARRIAGE. AS

SUCH THEY ARE JUST CAUSE FOR DIVORCE."--

GENERAL ACTIONS, P. 10. REASONS FOR WHICH

A PERSON MAY BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED FROM THE

SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH INCLUDE

"HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICE AND OTHER

PERVERSIONS."--SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST

CHURCH MANUAL (REVISED 1986), P. 162.]

Sodomitish Impurity. Oh, how disgusted is God with the tame, lifeless, Christless efforts made by some of those who profess to be His servants! God's work must be carried forward strongly and upward. This cannot be done unless the sensuality that corrupts the whole man is separated from the religious experience. This work must be done. {TSB 119.2}

Church members need to fast and pray, striving earnestly to overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. Not one particle of Sodomitish impurity will escape the wrath of God at the execution of the judgment. Those who do not repent of and forsake all uncleanness will fall with the wicked. Those who become members of the royal family and form God's kingdom in the earth made new, will be saints, not sinners. Isaiah 30:1-3, 8-16. {TSB 119.3}

Those who have had great light and have disregarded it stand in a worse position than those who have not been given so many advantages. They exalt themselves, but not the Lord. The punishment inflicted on human beings will in every case be proportionate to the dishonor they have brought on God. Many, by a course of self-indulgence, have put Christ to open shame.--Letter 159, 1901. {TSB 119.4}

Basest Passions of the Human Heart. Indulgence in unlawful things has become a power to deprave mankind, to dwarf the mind and to pervert the faculties. Just such a state of things as exists today existed before the flood and before the destruction of Sodom. Dissipation is on the increase in our world. Handbills on which indecent pictures are printed are posted up along our streets to allure the eyes and deprave the morals. These presentations are of such a character as to stir up the basest passions of the human heart through corrupt imaginings. These corrupt imaginings are followed by defiling practices like those in which the Sodomites indulged. But the most terrible part of the evil is that it is practiced under the garb of sanctity. Our youth will be defiled, their thoughts degraded, and their souls polluted unless they are barricaded with the truth.--Letter 1, 1875. {TSB 120.1}

Sodom's Sins Today. We are not ignorant of the fall of Sodom because of the corruption of its inhabitants. The prophet has here [Ezekiel 16:49] specified the particular evils which led to dissolute morals. We see the very sins now existing in the world which were in Sodom and which brought upon her the wrath of God, even to her utter destruction.-- 4BC 1161. {TSB 120.2}

Strange Abandonment of Principle. Is there not enough transpiring about us to show us the dangers that beset our path? Everywhere are seen wrecks of humanity, broken-down family altars, broken-up families. There is a strange abandonment of principle, the standard of morality is lowered, and the earth is fast becoming a Sodom. The Sodomitish practices which brought the judgment of God upon the world, and caused it to be deluged with water, and which caused Sodom to be destroyed by fire, are fast increasing. We are nearing the end. God has borne long with the perversity of mankind, but their punishment is no less certain. Let those who profess to be the light of the world, depart from all iniquity.--RH Nov. 10, 1884. {TSB 120.3}

Impurity is today widespread, even among the professed followers of Christ. Passion is unrestrained; the animal propensities are gaining strength by indulgence, while the moral powers are constantly becoming weaker. . . . The sins that destroyed the antediluvians and the cities of the plain exist today--not merely in heathen lands, not only among popular professors of Christianity, but with some who profess to be looking for the coming of the Son of man. If God should present these sins before you as they appear in His sight, you would be filled with shame and terror.--5T 218. {TSB 121.1}

[John317]

Continued

SoP on Sodomitish Pratictices-

Quote:

High Resolve and Spiritual Life Destroyed. Secret vice is the destroyer of high resolve, earnest endeavor, and strength of will to form a good religious character. All who have any true sense of what is embraced in being a Christian know that the followers of Christ are under obligation as His disciples to bring all their passions, their physical powers and mental faculties into perfect subordination to His will. Those who are controlled by their passions cannot be followers of Christ. They are too much devoted to the service of their master, the originator of every evil, to leave their corrupt habits and choose the service of Christ.--CG 445, 446.

{TSB 121.2}

Vital Energy Is Depleted. The practice of secret habits surely destroys the vital forces of the system. All unnecessary vital action will be followed by corresponding depression. Among the young the vital capital, the brain, is so severely taxed at an early age that there is a deficiency and great exhaustion, which leaves the system exposed to disease of various kinds. {TSB 122.1}

Foundation Laid for Various Diseases Later in Life. If the practice is continued from the ages of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. Some of nature's fine machinery gives way, leaving a heavier task for the remaining to perform, which disorders nature's fine arrangement; and there is often a sudden breaking down of the constitution, and death is the result.--CG 444. {TSB 122.2}

The Results of Self-Abuse. Females possess less vital force than the other sex, and are deprived very much of the bracing, invigorating air by their indoor life. The results of self-abuse in them is seen in various diseases such as catarrh, dropsy, headache, loss of memory and sight, great weakness in the back and loins, affections of the spine, the head often decays inwardly. Cancerous humor, which would lie dormant in the system their lifetime, is inflamed and commences its eating, destructive work. The mind is often utterly ruined, and insanity takes place. [sEE APPENDIX A.]--AM 27.

{TSB 122.3}

One Who Requested Prayer for Healing. My husband and I once attended a meeting where our sympathies were enlisted for a brother who was a great sufferer with the phthisic. He was pale and emaciated. He requested the prayers of the people of God. He said that his family were sick, and that he had lost a child. He spoke with feeling of his bereavement. He said that he had been waiting for some time to see Brother and Sister White. He had believed that if they would pray for him, he would be healed. After the meeting closed, the brethren called our attention to the case. They said that the church was assisting them, that his wife was sick, and his child had died. The brethren had met at his house and united in praying for the afflicted family. We were much worn and had the burden of labor upon us during the meeting and wished to be excused. I had resolved not to engage in prayer for anyone, unless the Spirit of the Lord should dictate in the matter. . . . {TSB 123.1}

That night we bowed in prayer and presented his case before the Lord. We entreated that we might know the will of God concerning him. All we desired was that God might be glorified. Would the Lord have us pray for this afflicted man? We left the burden with the Lord and retired to rest. In a dream the case of that man was clearly presented. His course from his childhood up was shown, and that if we should pray, the Lord would not hear us, for he regarded iniquity in his heart. The next morning the man came for us to pray for him. We took him aside and told him we were sorry to be compelled to refuse his request. I related my dream, which he acknowledged was true. He had practiced self-abuse from his boyhood up, and he had continued the practice during his married life, but said he would try to break himself of it. This man had a long-established habit to overcome. He was in the middle age of life. His moral principles were so weak that when brought in conflict with long-established indulgence, they were overcome. . . . {TSB 123.2}

Here was a man debasing himself daily and yet daring to venture into the presence of God and ask an increase of strength which he had vilely squandered, and which, if granted, he would consume upon his lust. What forbearance has God! If He should deal with man according to his corrupt ways, who could live in His sight? What if we had been less cautious and carried the case of this man before God while he was practicing iniquity, would the Lord have heard? Would He have answered? "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee. The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight; Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.". . . {TSB 124.1}

This is not a solitary case. Even the marriage relation was not sufficient to preserve this man from the corrupt habits of his youth. I wish I could be convinced that such cases as the one I have presented are rare, but I know they are frequent.--CG 450, 451. {TSB 124.2}

[abelisle]

"Foundation Laid for Various Diseases Later in Life. If the practice is continued from the ages of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. Some of nature's fine machinery gives way, leaving a heavier task for the remaining to perform, which disorders nature's fine arrangement; and there is often a sudden breaking down of the constitution, and death is the result.--CG 444. {TSB 122.2}"

Do you really believe this! If this was the case, millions of people would be dead or near dead and what distinguishes "self-abuse" from sexual intercourse? One has to question if this was inspired or just borrowed from her contemporaries?

Alex

[Stan]

There is no clear definition of 'self-abuse'. Once a year, once a day, etc etc

I remember one person in a class I was taking, it was called the Sociology of Sex, or something like that, where one guy claimed he 'pleasured himself', he used other words, 8-10 times a day.

He never seemed, well, normal, but which caused which?

[ClubV12]

"In a dream the case of that man was clearly presented."

I'm still amazed at how many seek to discredit the inspired messenger of the Lord. The counsel is solid, proceed at your own risk. Science has yet to catch up, maybe they never will. The voice of man or the mouth piece for God? Your call. I'll go with the prophets.

[olger]

Self abuse (masturbation) causes several consequences. It should be avoided/resolved. Great thread!

`oG

[miz3]

"Foundation Laid for Various Diseases Later in Life. If the practice is continued from the ages of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. Some of nature's fine machinery gives way, leaving a heavier task for the remaining to perform, which disorders nature's fine arrangement; and there is often a sudden breaking down of the constitution, and death is the result.--CG 444. {TSB 122.2}"

Do you really believe this! If this was the case, millions of people would be dead or near dead and what distinguishes "self-abuse" from sexual intercourse? One has to question if this was inspired or just borrowed from her contemporaries?

Alex

Good point and good question.

[John317]

Yes, it certainly should be avoided.

But the reason I posted what I did above is to show that Ellen White uses the term "Sodomitish practices," etc., to refer to sexually immoral behaviors and not to selfishness or greed or a refusal to help the poor.

I also did not post this in order to point to gays or lesbians as evil people.

I believe God loves gays and lesbians and wants us to help them. Helping them means not lying to them but being willing to tell them the truth-- that the practice of homosexuality is wrong and that God loves them too much to leave them in that practice. He has the power available to help us find happiness in doing God's will. That is my purpose and message.

[John317]

"Foundation Laid for Various Diseases Later in Life. If the practice is continued from the ages of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. --CG 444. {TSB 122.2}"

That is a passage I read when I was about 13. I clearly remember reading it near my dad's bookcase. I didn't like Ellen White because I felt she wrote too many things that kept me from having a good time. Ironically, Ellen White's granddaughter Grace lived on our street and taught across the hallway from my classroom. I saw her walk by our house every day after school. And my mother read Ellen White's books for family worship every day. So I knew enough even then to be sure that Ellen White was a true prophet. But I still hated "old lady White," because she was a kill-joy. I made fun of boys at school who I saw reading her books.

I did it often at that time and continued to do it and to teach other boys my age to do it. I did it every day, several times a day, from that time until only a few years ago. I'm now in my early 60s. Last February, I was diagnosed with "a mass on my kidney." It was confirmed a month ago during a CAT-scan that it is a tumor, and now I have an appointment with a specialist September 16 to see if it is malignant.

Does this prove anything? Of course not. Maybe it is just coincidence.

But I wish I could take back all the things that this habit got me into.

I know God has forgiven me for what I did, but I wish I had all those wasted years back and could change the influences I had on other kids. Later I had the same sorts of influences on many hundreds of men. I know that it all started with masturbation. My older brother and a next door neighbor boy taught me when I was about 12. By the time I was 13 or 14, I was "hooked."

As a psch tech at Patton State Hospital in the 1980s, I knew of patients who had no control over their urge to masturbate. I also knew of such people who were not in a mental hospital. One lover of a friend of mine could not get work because he couldn't control his desire to masturbate. So, for people to claim that masturbation is not a serious problem for many people, only shows a lack of knowledge of the topic. Whether, however, it causes millions of people to have health and mental problems, we will have to wait until we get to heaven to find out for sure. But based on my knowledge of Ellen White's track record, I'd be willing to place my bets on the little old lady who was a prophet of God.

[ClubV12]

I believe if you actually take seriously the health message, in all regards, it will significantly help in over coming any and all sin.

Fresh air, exercise, proper sleep, diet, prayer and bible study, the LIFE STYLE. Not just some "nominal Adventist life style", but a serious approach. As if you were training for a race, or even the olympics. As Paul said it, he wasn't kidding, it wasn't just some story, he was serious. I'm talking about getting dead serious about really applying this stuff in your life. Few can even grasp the concept. It is my goal, and I DO feel increased health, strength and a stronger spiritual life already. And still have a long way to go, but no question, the health message is awesome!! It improves spirtiual perception, invigorates the body and the mind, calms the nerves, strengthens the will. It IS possible to overcome, I know most guys don't think they have a chance. Wrong, it CAN be done, in the end, there will be no "excuse", you were given the plan to succeed and ignored it.

[John317]

What you say is very true, Club.

I took my health for granted until a few years ago, because I was always so healthy and athletic. That is the way it often is.

Now I do practice the health message but it took diabetes to teach me the necessity of doing it. I drink lots of good water these days instead of the gallons of diet pepsi I used to drink.

[miz3]

Yes, it certainly should be avoided.

But the reason I posted what I did above is to show that Ellen White uses the term "Sodomitish practices," etc., to refer to sexually immoral behaviors and not to selfishness or greed or a refusal to help the poor.

I also did not post this in order to point to gays or lesbians as evil people.

I believe God loves gays and lesbians and wants us to help them. Helping them means not lying to them but being willing to tell them the truth-- that the practice of homosexuality is wrong and that God loves them too much to leave them in that practice. He has the power available to help us find happiness in doing God's will. That is my purpose and message.

I agree with your last two paragraphs. The Bible is very clear about what you said. Unfortunately many "Christian" persons do lie to them by telling them that the Bible thinks it is alright to "practice" these so-called "life style" alternatives.

The PRACTICE OF THESE ALTERNATIVE LIFESTYLES is indeed considered a sin just as lying, stealing, adultery, coveting, etc. are sinful.

You are also correct in that God will exercise His infinite power to heal them every bit as much as God exercises His infinite power to heal the liar, the stealer, the adulterer, the coveter, etc.

There is "no sin" existent that God cannot heal.

There is much you and I do not agree on John317, but I would dare say that you and I can agree about this. There is evidence out there that demonstrates the Truth of what we say. Many of us have either experienced the freeing power of God in this regard or have seen it displayed up close and personal in the lives of those close to us. I find the evidence UNDENIABLE!

[Gail]

Even if one is not gay, purity is a current issue. Fornication is a sin of heterosexuals, too (see 1 Corinthians)

[miz3]

Even if one is not gay, purity is a current issue. Fornication is a sin of heterosexuals, too (see 1 Corinthians)

Absolutely true Gail!

LUST IS LUST regardless of the form it takes.

Jesus Christ was quite plain and clear that LUST IS A SIN!

Jesus Christ didn't say 'only "alternative" lust is a sin'.

Jesus Christ said that ALL LUST IS A SIN!

Regardless of the "variety" LUST IS A SIN!

I don't know how much clearer to be?

Thank you Gail.

[John317]

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, it certainly should be avoided.

But the reason I posted what I did above is to show that Ellen White uses the term "Sodomitish practices," etc., to refer to sexually immoral behaviors and not to selfishness or greed or a refusal to help the poor.

I also did not post this in order to point to gays or lesbians as evil people.

I believe God loves gays and lesbians and wants us to help them. Helping them means not lying to them but being willing to tell them the truth-- that the practice of homosexuality is wrong and that God loves them too much to leave them in that practice. He has the power available to help us find happiness in doing God's will. That is my purpose and message.

I agree with your last two paragraphs. The Bible is very clear about what you said. Unfortunately many "Christian" persons do lie to them by telling them that the Bible thinks it is alright to "practice" these so-called "life style" alternatives.

The PRACTICE OF THESE ALTERNATIVE LIFESTYLES is indeed considered a sin just as lying, stealing, adultery, coveting, etc. are sinful.

You are also correct in that God will exercise His infinite power to heal them every bit as much as God exercises His infinite power to heal the liar, the stealer, the adulterer, the coveter, etc.

There is "no sin" existent that God cannot heal.

There is much you and I do not agree on John317, but I would dare say that you and I can agree about this. There is evidence out there that demonstrates the Truth of what we say. Many of us have either experienced the freeing power of God in this regard or have seen it displayed up close and personal in the lives of those close to us. I find the evidence UNDENIABLE!