Lay Sister White to one Side

[John317]

..The church or any individual's sole reason for being so far from Gods 'blue print' is not listening to the beckoning of the person standing at the door and knocking. Christ said HE would send the H*S* as a guide when HE left His disciples. EGW also said she would not have been needed had people been studying their Bibles and listening to the voice of God.

Not reading and heeding the Bible is 'reason'.

So when are we as a people going to start studying our Bibles and listening to the voice of God?

Why does Jesus wait?

[John317]

... and whenever anyone so much as raises an eyebrow in the context of EGW, this "none effect" quote is trotted out to silence any who dare give EGW anything but complete infallible effect.

Which is worse?

Not to silence anyone. It is merely to show what Ellen White said would happen in the future. Ellen White gave us this warning for a good reason.

God never warned us through her that Satan would lead people to put too much confidence in the Spirit of prophecy.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I would challenge everyone here to post at least as many words of Scripture as they do of EGW and spend 10X as much time reading and studying Scripture as EGW.

I personally spend much more time studying the Scriptures than I do Ellen G. White. I would estimate that I spend at least 7 hours in the Word for every hour I read Ellen White.

I probably do post as many Scriptures as I post EGW quotes.

I do find, however, that more people attack EGW than attack the Bible, so it stands to reason that sometimes EGW may be more frequently quoted in some discussions.

I don't recall ever seeing posts in which you are defending Ellen White or the Bible as being God's inspired instructions to us. As a matter of fact, I distinctly recall your saying that Ellen White was wrong about Adam and Eve being separate at the Tree. I also remember your saying that you don't believe the testimony of the book of 2 Peter and Jude in regard to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Am I wrong about this?

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That might stop the spinning in her grave.

What would stop the prophet of God from spinning in her grave is if the church and its individual members would begin to really follow the Testimonies.

[John317]

Certainly a fair bit of dancing going on in this thread...

Where is it, Bravus? I see some dancing, but maybe you mean something different from what I'm seeing.

What exactly is your position on this topic?

[John317]

The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible.—Selected Messages, bk. 1, p. 416.

How do you relate that quote to the church's use of Ellen White's writings?

The Bible is certainly our creed and the sole bond of union.

All of our doctrines must be based on the Bible, and I believe they are.

However, many people misunderstand this to mean that we should have no beliefs that are based on Ellen White's writings.

For instance, Ellen White was given visions of the Fall and of the last-day events, so naturally she gives us details of those events that are not found in Scripture.

In addition, of course, she was given visions on health which contained instructions not found in Scripture.

She also tells us things about the labor unions which are not found in the Bible.

Do you understand it to be against Ellen White's counsel to accept what she said about those things, even though they are not in Scripture?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Not heeding the Straight Testimony-- which includes the Spirit of prophecy-- is the reason Jesus has not come.

So, question.....what was the SOP before EGW?

Is the suggestion that Christ could not have come without EGW?

My impression from EGW is that Christ could have come had His people been studying and heeding, before her. EGW, herself through her writings, constantly calls people back to the Bible. So, since the Bible is the pointed to object of her writings, anyone pointing to it, including EGW would be under the influence of the H*S. Ignoring, not heeding, anyone exhortation would also be included as a reason. So we are back to an ignoring of the H*S and its guiding which would be a reason for Christ not coming. So what is the exhortation of the Bible and EGW, Christ and Him only which we are brought to when entering into a relationship with Him.

The reason Christ has not come, the harvest is not ready!!

[jasd]

>>"Those who start up to proclaim a message on their own individual responsibility, who, while claiming to be taught and led of God, still make it their special work to tear down that which God has been for years building up, are not doing the will of God. Be it known that these men are on the side of the great deceiver. Believe them not. [...]”<<

Quote:

O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us.

Ay, it goes to perspectives, yes?—I mean, one might say that Gd spent the last two millennia “building up” – and along comes a ‘smallish’ Johnny-come-lately .Org that makes it its “special work to tear down”.

So, should the .Org be ‘righteous’ in its censure – one asks, “Where was Gd these past two millennia? Talk about a ‘short hand’!

>>The result of such work will be unbelief in the Testimonies, and, as far as possible, they will make of none effect the work that I have for years been doing. {TM 51.1}<<

Acts 5:38 ...if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

Acts 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Don’t worry, be happy...

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote;John317

However, I have noticed that whenever a thread is about Ellen White, we invariably get the following responses:

1) Ellen White shouldn't be quoted so much.

2) We don't need Ellen White all that much, maybe not at all.

3) Better to just study the Bible.

4) Ellen White was OK in her day but she's not always reliable.

5) SDAs are foolish to still believe in Ellen White.

6) Ellen White was a false prophet.

7) Things said about her that shouldn't be repeated.

To which I might add:

8) Question the validity of self-ascription

9) Assert that she may be more correctly read as pastoral

10) Suggest excessive volubleness – lending itself to increased error-creep

[John317]

Not heeding the Straight Testimony-- which includes the Spirit of prophecy-- is the reason Jesus has not come.

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

So, question.....what was the SOP before EGW?

The Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit manifested in the writings of the genuine prophets of God. Ellen White used the term "The Spirit of prophecy" to refer to her own writings which the Spirit of God inspired. She also uses the term "Spirit of prophecy" with reference to Enoch.

The reason we aren't in heaven now is the same reason that Israel didn't go directly into the Land of Promise but had to wander for 40 years in the wilderness.

They rebelled against God's prophet and refused to obey the instructions that God gave the people through His prophet.

[John317]

Not heeding the Straight Testimony-- which includes the Spirit of prophecy-- is the reason Jesus has not come.

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Is the suggestion that Christ could not have come without EGW?

God could have picked anyone He wanted as His prophet, so yes, Christ could have come without EGW. But God saw that the church needed a prophet in order to stay on the right road and avoid the pit-falls that all the other churches have fallen into. When we study the history of the SDA church since 1863, we can see how essential the prophetic ministery of EGW has been.

But after Christ's rejection and death, God never had any plan for Christ return to this earth prior to the end of the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8: 14. The work of Christ in the Most Holy Place is the last phase of His work which must be completed before the close of human probation.

Quote:

My impression from EGW is that Christ could have come had His people been studying and heeding, before her.

Yes, Christ could have come a relatively short time after 1844 and again in the 1890s, if God's people had accepted the message God sent to the church and united in proclaiming it to the world under the power of the Holy Spirit. But nowhere does Ellen White say or imply that Christ could have come before 1844.

The point here is that the church has continued to reject the message and has never united in the proclamation of the Three Angels Messages.

[John317]

Not heeding the Straight Testimony-- which includes the Spirit of prophecy-- is the reason Jesus has not come.

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

EGW, herself through her writings, constantly calls people back to the Bible.

Yes. As any genuine prophet can be expected to do.

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

So, since the Bible is the pointed to object of her writings, anyone pointing to it, including EGW would be under the influence of the H*S.

Unfortunately, not everyone who points to the Bible is under the influence of the Holy Spirit. It would be great if it was that simple. But the Devil himself has quoted the Bible and seemingly pointed to the Bible. Many false prophets have "pointed" people to the Bible.

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Ignoring, not heeding, anyone exhortation would also be included as a reason. So we are back to an ignoring of the H*S and its guiding which would be a reason for Christ not coming.

Wouldn't that depend on whether the exhortation is true?

It wouldn't help Jesus come if people heeded false messages.

How does a person know the difference between the false and the true?

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

So what is the exhortation of the Bible and EGW, Christ and Him only which we are brought to when entering into a relationship with Him.

Is Jesus waiting for people to enter into a relationship with Him? Is that what is holding up the second coming?

Entering into a relationship with Jesus is actually only the beginning.

Check out these quotes:

Rev. 19:7

Let us rejoice and exult

and give him the glory,

for the marriage of the Lamb has come,

and his Bride has made herself ready;

Rev. 7:14

I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Daniel 12:9-10

He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. [10] Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. {GC 425}

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

The reason Christ has not come, the harvest is not ready!!

And what is going to get the harvest ready?

The Latter Rain. But the Latter Rain will not come until God's people are sealed in their foreheads and are prepared to proclaim the Loud Cry. (See GC 613, 614.)

[ClubV12]

John says,

"How does a person know the difference between the false and the true?"

That is possibly the most important question any of us can ask, plenty people are absolutely convinced they have the truth.

There are some fundamental principles involved in the way we can test truth. I'm working on a study to give more clairity to this important issue but we all know the basics.

They must speak according to the law and the testimony of course is the big one. The "world" can interpret that any way they want, Adventists would be wise to interpret it as the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. But with so many "errors" being introduced into the church (Adventist and Babylon churces) are SO close to truth it is extremely difficult to tell truth from error. Another principal Ellen White gives us is much prayer while we are considering the correct path. Some errors were not immediately apparent even to Sister White, thats how subtle they are.

SO SUBTLE at some point our only hope will be prayer! This is where my study is focused. What are the principals involved to be assured our prayers are from a true heart and a right spirit? You see "sincerity" is not always enough, there are indeed certain known principals the Lord has revealed for our prayers to be effective.

Some things I'm considering:

Put away known sin. If your holding onto some "idol" or "secret sin" in your life, you are tempting the devil. You WILL be deceived and won't even know it! The error will appear to be the correct path and into delusion you may/will fall. If they speak not according to the TESTIMONY. How do you know WHAT the Testimony (Spirit of Prophecy) says if you constantly question it? Even if you read it all and find "mistakes" and "errors" and "personal opinion" in the writings you've gained nothing. The Testimonies (which include all of Sister Whites work) provide a powerful health message. Why? To prepare our MINDS for spiritual food. If your ignoring the Health Message, it will be very difficult to discern truth from error, not matter how much you pray. If you really want serious answers to serious prayer you need to be serious about following existing light, existing counsel. I've got more to say on this subject but I suspect few will accept what I've already said, so I'll stop here.

Know this: ONLY the truly converted will be able to identify the OMEGA apostasy. EVERY ONE ELSE, 100%, will fall for it and not even know it. What IS conversion? DO you have it? A solem question, we all need to review and ask ourself. Very easy to be fooled on this most important question. Many HAVE had it, true conversion, only to have lost it somewhere along the path. Conversion is a daily matter.

[John317]

Excellent, Club.

I know Ellen White says somewhere that before the end comes, the only way anyone will know truth from error is by the Holy Spirit.

[John317]

"Those who start up to proclaim a message on their own individual responsibility, who, while claiming to be taught and led of God, still make it their special work to tear down that which God has been for years building up, are not doing the will of God. Be it known that these men are on the side of the great deceiver. Believe them not. They are allying themselves with the enemies of God and the truth. They will deride the order of the ministry as a system of priestcraft. From such turn away, have no fellowship with their message, however much they may quote the Testimonies and seek to entrench themselves behind them. Receive them not, for God has not given them this work to do. The result of such work will be unbelief in the Testimonies, and, as far as possible, they will make of none effect the work that I have for years been doing. {TM 51.1}

Originally Posted By: lazarus

I haven't seen anyone anywhere here suggesting that the SDA church is Babylon. That's what she's talking about right?

Ellen White says in many contexts that in the future, many within the SDA church will attempt to weaken people's confidence in the Testimonies.

Quote:

It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.--4T 211. {LDE 178.2}

Nowhere does Ellen White say that it will be dangerous to have too much confidence in her writings. Nor does she say that Satan will tempt people to quote her writings too much.

Please see the following also:

Quote:

One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit.--3SM 84 (1903). {LDE 177.4}

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.--1SM 48 (1890). {LDE 177, 178}

The enemy has made his masterly efforts to unsettle the faith of our own people in the Testimonies. . . . This is just as Satan designed it should be, and those who have been preparing the way for the people to pay no heed to the warnings and reproofs of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God will see that a tide of errors of all kinds will spring into life.--3SM 83 (1890). {LDE 178.1}

[John317]

Inspired writings will stand the test of the closest scrutiny and the most vigorous discussion. Nothing is gained by not so subtle insinuations.

That's not the issue here. Of course her writings can stand the test of the closest scrutiny and the most vigorous discussion. You won't see anything by me suggesting that we shouldn't discuss it or that it can't stand the testing.

In fact, I favor more discussion and testing. But I also would like people to be open and forthright about their positions and their viewpoint.

Do you believe, like Tom Wetmore, that Adam and Eve were separate at the tree as Ellen White says?

Also, do you believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of sexual immorality? Jude and 2 Peter give this as a major reason, and the Genesis account also shows that sexual immorality played a large part in Sodom's destruction. Tom has said before that he does not accept the testimony of those books. What are your thoughts about this? Do you accept as inspired and reliable all the books of the Bible, including Jude and 2 Peter?

[John317]

The reason for posting the quote is this:

Some months ago I had a conversation with a church member who had an objection to praise dance. When sharing with her what the bible said about praising the Lord with dance her response was to say "you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say". In some respects that is true. This was a long time SDA and I thought she understood the pre-eminence of God's word. Implicit in her comment was that EGW was really the reliable source of truth rather than I Bible.

I'd like to know briefly what you told her the Bible says about praising the Lord with dance.

Doubtless you mentioned Mariam's dancing on the edge of the Red Sea, and David's dancing before the Lord.

I believe that the Bible and Ellen White's counsels on dancing are in harmony. Ellen White's counsels apply the Bible to our own time. I think that's important. A lot has happened between the time of King David and 2011. It seems to me we need to take those changes into consideration when we think about the propriety of dancing in church.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

I have found a resurgence in this type or perspective. Many are more apt to quote (or post) a passage from EGW rather than do the sometimes hard but necessary work to understand what the Bible really has to say.

The problem is, though, Lazarus, you have no idea what Bible study people have done. Simply because members posts Ellen White quotes is no evidence they haven't studied what the Bible teaches on any given subject. It would be a good idea to ask them, if you have doubt whether they know what the Bible says on that topic.

Among SDAs, there's certainly nothing wrong with talking about what God's prophet says. We need to know what she wrote, and I am only too glad when other members of my church show an interest in what Ellen White said about a particular topic.

Do people need to know their Bibles? Yes, certainly; and the best way to encourage members of the church to study the Bible is to discuss it with them. That what the theology threads and Theological Townhall are all about.

There's really a lot of quoting of Scripture on those threads.

[lazarus]

However, many people misunderstand this to mean that we should have no beliefs that are based on Ellen White's writings.

If you mean doctrines or fundamental beliefs I would agree with that position. What beliefs do you have that are based solely on EGW?

Every position EGW outlines has a principle in scripture. 2 Corinthians 6:14 in the union case. In regards to health and end time events. The essence and basis of those perspectives are found in scripture.

I preached a sermon on the time of trouble two weeks ago. I could have taken out all 4 EGW quotes and given a clear understanding of what the time of trouble is from scripture alone. Last year I preached a 3 part series on health. I could have taken out the several quotes by EGW and still give a clear view of whats God's plan is for our health.

I choose to use EGW because she often gives a clearer understanding, I believe she is inspired but the basis for my teaching is always scripture. I use her writings because God has bless our church with her gifts, why would I ignore a blessing like that?

[lazarus]

I'd like to know briefly what you told her the Bible says about praising the Lord with dance.

Doubtless you mentioned Mariam's dancing on the edge of the Red Sea, and David's dancing before the Lord.

No actually i didn't

Ps 150 can be considered to be the doxology of the Psalms. A summary.

Who should we praise?

1 Praise the LORD!

Where should we praise him?

Praise God in His sanctuary;

Praise Him in His mighty firmament!

Why?

2 Praise Him for His mighty acts;

Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!

With what and how?

3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;

Praise Him with the lute and harp!

4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;

Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!

5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;

Praise Him with clashing cymbals!

Who should praise?

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.

Praise the LORD!

Psalms 149

1 Praise the LORD!

Sing to the LORD a new song,

And His praise in the assembly of saints.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;

Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.

3 Let them praise His name with the dance;

Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp.

4 For the LORD takes pleasure in His people;

He will beautify the humble with salvation.

Ecclesiastes 3:4 too!

The only questions that are Biblical relevant when it comes to dance are where and how not if?

[lazarus]

Do you accept as inspired and reliable all the books of the Bible, including Jude and 2 Peter?

LOL! Now you're asking me whether I believe in the Bible itself. You should do stand-up!

A question for you.....

Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and.... avoid the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, ...... of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs?

[ClubV12]

I've only been an Adventist for a year or so, baptized a few months ago. Slowly I am finding that the counsel Sister White offers is paralled in the bible, but it's certainly not obvious. The bible made little sense to me early on. I didn't have a plan of study, didn't know where to start. People would say read the word, and I did, but it's not a good plan to just pick it up and let if fall open to some random text. The Quarterly lessons helped a lot, I found them quite interesting. Meanwhile, I was reading Sister White like crazy. Burning through Steps to Christ (that was what I REALLY needed at the time), Great Controversy, Conflict Series, Early Writings was fascinating. I couldn't get enough. I've almost completed reading the Testimonies.

Her writings spoke to me in a language and a way I could easily grasp. It made plain the great controversy, the lifestyle, what it means to be a christian, an Adventist. NOW I have a structured plan to read and study the bible, it makes sense, NOW it does. But it didn't for awhile, thank God He gave us a prophet to make clear the way of the Lord.

What I'm discovering now is that SO many Adventists don't read "that much" of Sister White. The drum beat of this or that "new Adventist" book is constant. Some good book, by some good author, with some good message, ALWAYS being talked about. I started to read a few, and they were really good. George Knight is an exceptional author. But I'm finding that what ever is in that latest, greatest "good book" is often paralled with what Sister White has to say on the subject, which of course is based on what the bible has to say!

So why do we read all these "good books"? To gain insights and understanding of what the bible has to say! So OBVIOUSLY there is a need for people to grasp these things OUTSIDE of the bible, because not all of us "are that smart" you know. It's not like we can easily see these biblical principles, we need help, I need help. I'm going back to the best source I CAN understand, Sister White, instead of that "latest and greatest" good Adventist book currently being promoted by the church. Nothing wrong with those good books, but I need to stay focused on the "source" and for me that is TWO FOLD: The bible AND Sister White, thank the Lord for both!

At prayer meeting recently three books were recommended, when that "plug time" was over I raisded my hand. I wanted to suggest one more book on the subject we were talking about. Volume 9 of the Testimonies! Go to the source from which these good books were written.

[Bravus]

Psalm 150

[BobRyan]

Not sure if that was supposed to be a "good thing".

I thought maybe if I put it on mute - to get rid of the noise, the real heart of the message would show -- and sadly - it does...

Bob

[Bravus]

Quote:

Not sure if that was supposed to be a "good thing".

I thought maybe if I put it on mute - to get rid of the noise, the real heart of the message would show -- and sadly - it does...

Bob

Bite me, goat boy.

[John317]

A beautiful rendition of the Old Rugged Cross:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CltrLsjsQl0

Softly and Tenderly Jesus is Calling-- Anne Murray

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dresvqIg9nA&feature=fvwrel

How Great Thou Art-- Anne Murray

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofw7RLhsmxU&feature=related

[John317]

Do you accept as inspired and reliable all the books of the Bible, including Jude and 2 Peter?

Originally Posted By: lazarus

LOL! Now you're asking me whether I believe in the Bible itself. You should do stand-up!

Is that really so far fetched? I know of SDAs who don't accept those books as inspired, and I'm sure you do, too.

I myself do accept them. They are God's inspired word.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

A question for you.....

Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and....

Yes, I do.

Originally Posted By: Lazarus

avoid the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, ...... of alcoholic beverages,

Yes, I never did eat unclean foods. I used to drink but stopped about five years ago. I have no more desire to drink alcohol.

Originally Posted By: Lazarus

the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption,

I stopped smoking completely about the same time that I stopped all drinking of alcohol.

Originally Posted By: Lazarus

and from the misuse of or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs?

I never did traffic in narcotics, but I did misuse drugs.

[John317]

Bite me, goat boy.

Who's the goat boy?