Circumcision can reduce HIV

[ClubV12]

That brings up an excellent point in consideration of health in view of cleanliness. The assumption being that it will ALWAYS be possible through out one's life to have access to running water and a good bath for everone on the planet. It is noted that those who are not circumcised need to spend extra time and pay careful attention to cleanliness. An extra "hassle" imposed on them for "life" under all circumstances. Like camping or doing missionary work in the depths of some jungle or living out of their car or on the street. Who knows what life may hold for any of us? Those who not circumcised put themselves at greater risk over a life time than those who are. I will eliminate some of that risk for my son by having him circumcised, for I know not what life may throw at him.

[barnz]

It is noted that those who are not circumcised need to spend extra time and pay careful attention to cleanliness. An extra "hassle" imposed on them for "life" under all circumstances.

Are you uncircumcised? How do you know? I'm not circumcised and anything there just washes out in the shower. There's no "hassle" for being uncircumcised. Has an uncircumcised person said to you that he feels its a hassle for having foreskin? I think it's only circumcised people that think of things like this. And remember...you should be wearing a CONDOM when having sex, so it doesn't matter if you're circumcised or not. I don't think I would plan on having any when I'm out in the jungle and doing missionary work anyway. Now, if you decide in your adult life to get a circumcision, that's fine, but I personally am against making such a permanent decision for someone else.

[ClubV12]

You don't need a doctorate to understand the increased difficulty of cleaning circumcised vs uncircumcised. Clearly and without a doubt it is more difficult and requires a bit more attention to detail for those who are uncircumcised. Not a "big deal" some might say, just washes off in the shower, no problem.

Shower? WHAT shower would that be? Oh the shower in YOUR home. Well aren't you the lucky guy, compared to the REST OF THE WORLD!!! Aren't you the lucky guy who's not LIVING IN HIS CAR. Or homeless on the street. Can you gaurentee your son will not have to do that at some point in his life, always? Can you gaurentee he will not get lazy and dismiss the need at some point in his life?

How can you take it for granted that "everyone" has access to clean water and a shower through his entire life time? Thats amazing.

I've been homeless, I've lived in my car, which was good times compared to when I DIDN'T even have a car to live in! Sleeping under bridges. Showers were hard to come by, cleanliness is a major problem for "street people". Of course that would never happen to you, or your son. Yeah, I always said that too, but I learned it can happen to anyone at anytime in their life.

You put yourself and your son at risk. The assumption that everything will be just fine and dandy borders on delusion. What do you read in that crystal ball you have for the future of your son? Better be safe than sorry. I'm willing to bet that even in Papua New Guinea the life style is cleaner than those who are homeless in America. Who ARE the homeless? That would be the thousands of folks being evicted right now from their foreclosed homes. Those who are far more concerned about their next meal than their next shower.

Of course, that would never happen to those smug folks talking about THEIR shower, always being there, for the rest of their life, no matter what. Yeah, I used to think like that, until I found my bed under a bridge one day....

[Igakusei]

The thing that makes it a tough decision is that the benefit/risk ratio is highest shortly after birth. Adult circumcisions carry greater risk and cause significantly more inconvenience.

Even so, I think I'll weigh in favor of letting my children be in control of their own bodies despite the slight medical benefits.

[Dr. Shane]

From what I have read in the past, several African governments encourage circumcision to the point of providing it at no cost to anyone willing. Condoms are a very good idea but for most poor Africans buying a condom would mean going without their next meal.

[fccool]

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You don't need a doctorate to understand the increased difficulty of cleaning circumcised vs uncircumcised. Clearly and without a doubt it is more difficult and requires a bit more attention to detail for those who are uncircumcised. Not a "big deal" some might say, just washes off in the shower, no problem.

Nop. A bottle of water and a paper towel would do , but it's not absolutely necessary. In those conditions, with dirty clothes and underwear, you probably would be better off with another "layer of protection". It's there for a good reason. No need to paint it in bad light.

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Shower? WHAT shower would that be? Oh the shower in YOUR home. Well aren't you the lucky guy, compared to the REST OF THE WORLD!!! Aren't you the lucky guy who's not LIVING IN HIS CAR. Or homeless on the street. Can you gaurentee your son will not have to do that at some point in his life, always? Can you gaurentee he will not get lazy and dismiss the need at some point in his life?

Lol. It's not that terrible. I would go without shower for several days as a kid, and I was in sports... plenty of sweat and dust. I've never had UTI or similar infection that's related to "circumcision problem".

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How can you take it for granted that "everyone" has access to clean water and a shower through his entire life time? Thats amazing.

I've likewise lived in rural areas where the only shower was the lake. Once again, no problems there.

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I've been homeless, I've lived in my car, which was good times compared to when I DIDN'T even have a car to live in! Sleeping under bridges. Showers were hard to come by, cleanliness is a major problem for "street people". Of course that would never happen to you, or your son. Yeah, I always said that too, but I learned it can happen to anyone at anytime in their life.

I can assure you that most of the uncircumcised world does not struggle with this issue, as any problems of such nature are fairly rare. Foreskin actually acts as a protective cover in cases when you go too long without an underwear change, or washing your clothes.

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You put yourself and your son at risk. The assumption that everything will be just fine and dandy borders on delusion. What do you read in that crystal ball you have for the future of your son? Better be safe than sorry. I'm willing to bet that even in Papua New Guinea the life style is cleaner than those who are homeless in America. Who ARE the homeless? That would be the thousands of folks being evicted right now from their foreclosed homes. Those who are far more concerned about their next meal than their next shower.

I can assure that taking care of their genitals will be the least of health concerns of people who are in this situation, whether they are circumcised or not.

If you look at human history, most of the people lived uncircumcised in far worst conditions. During the WWII US would circumcised their soldiers because of the "sand under the skin" problem. Ironically, neither Brits nor French had that problem, and were fine.

It's a non-issue. I can speak from experience.

[John317]

I simply would not do it to my kids. If they want to have it, they can get it later on in life, but I doubt they would.

It isn't any stress to the baby, and no one has any memory of it if it is done right after birth. I've never heard any complaints from people who were circumcised at that time. It was done to me and it was done to my son. I think it should be done unless the parent decides otherwise.

My father had it done when he was almost an adult and he wishes it had been done soon after birth.

[ClubV12]

"Foreskin actually acts as a protective cover in cases when you go too long without an underwear change, or washing your clothes."

Thats ridiculous, it's another layer to trap debris and increase the cause of infection.

A bottle of water and a napkin and somewhat dirty underwear? Being homeless is much more complicated than the cake walk you seem to suggest it is. Jumping in a lake, for instance, is just not an option for the vast majority of homeless if they DID live by a lake! Life is much different when your entire focus is based on survival. For one thing, you "stink" when your homeless. Dirty clothes, dirty in general, messed up hair. You WANT to avoid people, you know and feel your offensive. You often become beligerant and withdrawn as a result. Personal hygiene? You could care less, what difference does it make, your not going home to dinner with anybody anyway.

Homeless are at much greater risk than the general population for infection in general and specifically infections under their clothing. What about toilet paper? Infections in THAT area are common as well. This is why I believe it is the primary reason God gave us this advice in the first place. It was applicable centuries ago and remains directly applicable today.

Unless your rich and increased with goods of course, if so, then, no worries.

[fccool]

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Thats ridiculous, it's another layer to trap debris and increase the cause of infection.

You forget that God made men in this state. I guess God made a mistake... or did it grow when people sinned :)

[fccool]

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It isn't any stress to the baby, and no one has any memory of it if it is done right after birth. I've never heard any complaints from people who were circumcised at that time. It was done to me and it was done to my son. I think it should be done unless the parent decides otherwise.

My father had it done when he was almost an adult and he wishes it had been done soon after birth.

I don't disagree. If parents want to circumcise their children, their choice. I simply make it my child's choice. I think that it's one choice that he would have. I likewise think that information given should not be skewed or exaggerated.

In case of your father, if later on in life he wished otherwise, he would not have too many options.

[ClubV12]

"....or did it grow when people sinned."

You know, you might be onto something there. Like the thorns on a rose bush, not the original plan!

[CoAspen]

Stan,

I bet you knew what the topic would do...didn't you!!!!

[barnz]

I'm sorry that I have provoked you into making personal attacks ClubV12, but you seem to be saying that being homeless with an uncircumcised penis is much worse than being homeless with a circumcised penis. Smegma really isn't that big of a problem, it's not associated with any diseases, the only thing that happens is that it can smell, just like anything else you don't wash. I really do have to ask what stories you have heard where people say all of the inconvenient things they have to do because they're uncircumcised.

[John317]

You forget that God made men in this state. I guess God made a mistake... or did it grow when people sinned

We can't really assume that God made our bodies just as they are today. Our bodies are different now than they were when God original made man. For instance, if we let our hair grow and don't cut any of it, well, you can imagine... hair everywhere. lol

[ClubV12]

I apologize for any personal attacks, I'll temper my response accordingly.

It remains my personal belief that cleanliness in this area should NOT be underestimated. The whole point of Stans original post! It's an obvious conclusion supported by any reasonable counsel from any reasonable medical authority. Cleanliness is important. But hey, it's not that big of a deal, right? I mean what if those doctors are wrong and it's OK not to worry about circumcision? Uh, what if there right, is it OK not to worry about AIDS or STD's???

Cost benefit analysis? This is no brainer! I have no idea what life holds in store for my son, I will prepare him in every possible way to meet life head on under all conditions. The risks are enough without adding one more risk, small though it be, to the mix.

So, no worries about AIDS or STD's for your son, just tell him to stop by the store and pick up a condom. And keep that "thang" clean. I'm sure he will do that EVERY TIME without EVER failing. You hope,,,

But thats your call, lets just hope that new born baby grows up healthy, happy and never develops a problem that leads to a severe homeless condition or incapacitation. Where an uncircumcised condition increases his risk factor for health. Never happen to your child? Like your child will never fall off his bike and develop a severe mental impairment leaving his unable to properly care for himself? Or a car accident? Or a disease? Or any number of accidents life throws at us?

There is just no question there is an increased risk, the question is, what are you going to do about it? Maybe your feelin' lucky, for your entire life.

[John317]

In case of your father, if later on in life he wished otherwise, he would not have too many options.

OK, but I've never talked with any man who wished he hadn't been circumcised.

For me personally, it's not a big deal. I mean I don't care if other people are circumcised or not.

But I do know that if I were married to a man, I would prefer one who is circumcised.

[Pockey]

Urologists I've spoken with said they see far fewer problems in circumcised men than in uncircumcised, such as recurrent balanitis, phimosis, and condylomata. They don't even really like doing the procedure because the liability and risk is much higher when the procedure is done when the person is older (most pediatricians will only do circs on newborns and won't do them when they get much older because of the increased problems the older they are, thus they refer them out to the urologist once the baby passes a certain age). So if one believes there are some health benefits from it, it's much better to do it as an infant than when they are older.

Of note, squamous cell carcinoma is very rare in circs, but is seen in uncircs (although the overall incidence is still rare). There has been evidence that having the circumcision later in life wasn't protective against cancer versus early circumcision.

With that being said, the American Academy of Pediatrics current stance is that the evidence demonstrates potential benefits, but the data is not sufficient enough to recommend routine circumcision. (However, this policy was made in 1999).

[John317]

Thanks for that information, Sid. That is new to me. I haven't read very much about it.

[Pockey]

No problem! :)