Where Does The Weekly Sabbath Begin First.

[Q.E.D.]

What is the exact location that the weekly 7th day Sabbath first begins?

Does it first begin at some location in Jerusalem such as the Temple Mount?

[Igakusei]

[ClubV12]

Hmmmm, that looks like the same line for when the New Year starts.... :)

[12tribes]

Ezekiel 5:5

(5) Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

So since Jerusalem is in the midst we should be able to work out where it starts

[Q.E.D.]

Seems reasonable to me that the Sabbath would start at Jerusalem or the temple mount to me especially since the international date line did not exist from the beginning.

If you really think about this it can make your head spin!

Think of a globe in a dark room with a light shining on it. Half the globe would be light and half would be dark. Now as the globe turns slowly the dark that encroaches upon the light area would be the new day since the evening is the beginning of the next day. So you have Friday and Sabbath side by side. The dark would be Sabbath and the light would be Friday. Now as the demarcation line travels around the globe Friday would eventually be taken over until the whole globe is eveloped in the Sabbath. Then one second after this then Sunday, or the 1st day would begin. Now the interesting point is at what location did the original Sabbath begin?

Did the Jews at the time of Christ consider Jerusalem the beginning point for the Sabbath?

[12tribes]

Seems reasonable to me that the Sabbath would start at Jerusalem or the temple mount to me especially since the international date line did not exist from the beginning.

If you really think about this it can make your head spin!

Think of a globe in a dark room with a light shining on it. Half the globe would be light and half would be dark. Now as the globe turns slowly the dark that encroaches upon the light area would be the new day since the evening is the beginning of the next day. So you have Friday and Sabbath side by side. The dark would be Sabbath and the light would be Friday. Now as the demarcation line travels around the globe Friday would eventually be taken over until the whole globe is eveloped in the Sabbath. Then one second after this then Sunday, or the 1st day would begin. Now the interesting point is at what location did the original Sabbath begin?

Did the Jews at the time of Christ consider Jerusalem the beginning point for the Sabbath?

Well what I was thinking according to the text is to spread out a map of the world and have Jerusalem in the midst of the map so the the sabbath would start at the edge of the map

[ClubV12]

The original? The very first? Garden of Eden. Where was that?

Phase two, Noahs ark comes to rest. Where was that?

[Q.E.D.]

The original? The very first? Garden of Eden. Where was that?

Phase two, Noahs ark comes to rest. Where was that?

I don't know. That is why I thought a good place to start would be Jerusalem as far as the present time is concerned.

Perhaps the best answer might be where ever the "sons and daughters of God" were located from time past to the present.

[cheddar]

The Sabbath begins when you stop looking at the clock.

Quote:

The Sabbath is not designed for mere physical rest, but for spiritual. It has a higher meaning than is commonly attached to it. True, we are enjoined from doing our own labor on that day, but the cessation from physical labor on the Sabbath day is but an emblem of the spiritual rest which God gives to those who accept him as the Creator of all things. Without spiritual rest there is no true Sabbath-keeping. The Lord says that they who turn away their feet from the Sabbath, and do not do their own ways on his holy day, but call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable, shall delight themselves in the Lord. (Isa. 58:13,14.) A man may refrain from labor on the seventh day as scrupulously as ever the strictest Pharisee did; yet if he does not know and delight in the Lord Jesus Christ, he is not keeping the Sabbath of the Lord. True Sabbath rest can be found only in Christ. - EJ Waggoner, Gospel in Creation

[Q.E.D.]

The Sabbath begins when you stop looking at the clock.

Quote:

The Sabbath is not designed for mere physical rest, but for spiritual. It has a higher meaning than is commonly attached to it. True, we are enjoined from doing our own labor on that day, but the cessation from physical labor on the Sabbath day is but an emblem of the spiritual rest which God gives to those who accept him as the Creator of all things. Without spiritual rest there is no true Sabbath-keeping. The Lord says that they who turn away their feet from the Sabbath, and do not do their own ways on his holy day, but call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable, shall delight themselves in the Lord. (Isa. 58:13,14.) A man may refrain from labor on the seventh day as scrupulously as ever the strictest Pharisee did; yet if he does not know and delight in the Lord Jesus Christ, he is not keeping the Sabbath of the Lord. True Sabbath rest can be found only in Christ. - EJ Waggoner, Gospel in Creation

Good quote!

But that doesn't answer the question.

"Where" not "When".

[John317]

Love the quote from E.J. Waggoner.

But as to the question asked in the discussion, does it matter where the weekly Sabbath begins first?

I don't see how it does, at least in any practical sense.

[Q.E.D.]

Love the quote from E.J. Waggoner.

But as to the question asked in the discussion, does it matter where the weekly Sabbath begins first?

I don't see how it does, at least in any practical sense.

There may be a practical sense. If the Sabbath begins at the location of the International Date Line as shown in the image above then it begins at an arbitrary point devised by man. If it begins for instance at Jerusalem then there would be an enormous difference of hours pertaining to the sacred Sabbath hours. There would be some that would be thinking that they were keeping the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord our God when in fact they were not because they were following the constructs of the arbitrary manmade division for days.

Peace be unto you!

[John317]

The Sabbath begins here in Southern California when the sun goes down on Friday night. It ends when the sun goes down on Saturday night. We know the very minute when it begins and when it ends. How is this affected by where the Sabbath began first?

Are you saying I could actually be worshiping on a Friday or on a Sunday instead? From your viewpoint, how many hours or days are we possibly off?

[Q.E.D.]

The Sabbath begins here in Southern California when the sun goes down on Friday night. It ends when the sun goes down on Saturday night. We know the very minute when it begins and when it ends. How is this affected by where the Sabbath began first?

Are you saying I could actually be worshiping on a Friday or on a Sunday instead? From your viewpoint, how many hours or days are we possibly off?

I don't think anyone west of Jerusalem would be "off". That is if Jerusalem is actually the location that the Sabbath first begins. It would appear from the image of the globe that Igakusei posted that if it is true that the Sabbath begins at Jerusalem then all the area east of Jerusalem to the International Date Line in the middle of the Pacific Ocean would actually be "observing" the Sabbath several hours before it actually has begun. From the image provided by Igakusei it appears that Austrailia, Japan, part of China, Russia, India, and many other countries would be possibly observing the Sabbath several hours before sundown occurs in Jerusalem.

The International Dateline is a manmade convention. It did not actually exist as a common standard as far as I can tell prior to the 1800's.

I just found these interesting bits of trivia on Wikipedia.

"In Christianity it is also important to hold services on the correct day. Generally, the Christian calendar follows the legal calendar, and the Christian date line is on the same place as the international date line. One important issue exists in the Orthodox countries, where the Julian calendar is followed for religious purposes but the Gregorian calendar for civilian purposes. The two calendars have the same weekdays, so the main issue is when to celebrate Easter, Christmas and other main holidays. In Tonga, the Seventh Day Adventists(who usually observe the sabbath on a Saturday) observe the sabbath on a Sunday, officially due to an anomaly in the International Date Line which makes Sunday really Saturday."

"The concept of an international date line is first mentioned in a 12th-century Talmudic commentary [6][7] which seems to indicate that the day changes in an area where the time is six hours ahead of Jerusalem (90 degrees east of Jerusalem, a line running through the Philippines). This line, which he refers to as the K'tzai Hamizrach (the easternmost line), is used to calculate the day of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. According to some sources it is alluded to in the Talmud (Rosh Hashanah and Eruvin) as well as in the Jerusalem Talmud."

[phkrause]

I'm not sure what your trying to understand? Or even what your trying to get with your question? For me I look to the Bible and where God says from sundown to sundown. So as John has already mentioned the Sabbath starts at sundown where ever you live and ends at sundown the following day. Now I know that there are places like the North and South poles where there might not be a sundown for sometime. So in those places it might just be up to the people living there to determine a time period and go with that. So maybe, since God can read our hearts, sundown for them would be in there hearts. As far as where the Garden of Eden was, it definitely was not in the area of Jerusalem. From what I've read and understand its was in and around Iraq. The reason that I say that is if you read in Genesis you'll read about a number of rivers in the Garden of Eden. A few of them are still around. And also doesn't EGW mention that also? But am not sure. Those are my thoughts on this topic.

[John317]

In Tonga, the Seventh Day Adventists(who usually observe the sabbath on a Saturday) observe the sabbath on a Sunday, officially due to an anomaly in the International Date Line which makes Sunday really Saturday."

Could you please explain that?

The following is from the wikipedia:

Quote:

Everyday life is heavily influenced by Polynesian traditions and especially by the Christian faith; for example, all commerce and entertainment activities cease from midnight Saturday until midnight Sunday, and the constitution declares the Sabbath to be sacred, forever.

Apparently, according to the above, everyone in Tonga knows when Saturday and Sunday are. Do SDAs worship God the day before the other Christians worship? Or does everyone worship on the same day, that is, on Sunday?

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D

In Tonga, the Seventh Day Adventists(who usually observe the sabbath on a Saturday) observe the sabbath on a Sunday, officially due to an anomaly in the International Date Line which makes Sunday really Saturday."

Could you please explain that?

The following is from the wikipedia:

Quote:

Everyday life is heavily influenced by Polynesian traditions and especially by the Christian faith; for example, all commerce and entertainment activities cease from midnight Saturday until midnight Sunday, and the constitution declares the Sabbath to be sacred, forever.

Apparently, according to the above, everyone in Tonga knows when Saturday and Sunday are. Do SDAs worship God the day before the other Christians worship? Or does everyone worship on the same day, that is, on Sunday?

Not sure that I can explain it. I found it on Wikipedia. I think what the deal is that the International Dateline "curves" around the island of Tonga so they keep the 7th day Sabbath on what is commonly called Sunday on the island of Tonga.

[doug yowell]

Not sure that I can explain it. I found it on Wikipedia. I think what the deal is that the International Dateline "curves" around the island of Tonga so they keep the 7th day Sabbath on what is commonly called Sunday on the island of Tonga.

What do they call the day before? What do they call the next day?

[John317]

....Not sure that I can explain it. I found it on Wikipedia. I think what the deal is that the International Dateline "curves" around the island of Tonga so they keep the 7th day Sabbath on what is commonly called Sunday on the island of Tonga.

Then why does the wikipedia article state that "all commerce and entertainment activities cease from midnight Saturday until midnight Sunday, and the constitution declares the Sabbath [sunday] to be sacred, forever"?

The constitution actually declares Sunday to be sacred, calling it "the Sabbath," so they obviously know which day is Sunday. Therefore, it is clear that they know when the seventh day is. The seventh-day Sabbath always comes the day before the first day of the week. Why would it be any different in Tonga?

What you are saying-- that they have to keep the 7th day Sabbath on Sunday--- would only be true if there is no day before Sunday. Is this possible? Are there only six days in the week so that Friday comes before Sunday and there is no Saturday? Or do Saturday and Sunday occupy the same 24 hour period?

I would love to talk to a Seventh-day Adventist from Tonga about this.

[Kevin H]

I think it might be wise to follow what people did in Bible days. Yahwehism had converts as far away as China. With the exile Jews were in Babylon and Egypt. There were holy days and feasts that started at Jerualem and there would be smoke signals to notify those in Babylon and egypt. However The Sabbath was not one of these. In China Sabbath started when the sun set there. In Babylon when the sun set there. In Jerusalem when the sun set there. A little later by Jews in Greece and Rome and wherever else when the sun set where they were. Those living east of Jerusalem started Sabbath earlier and those west later. Thus the dateline is placed at a good spot based on how the Sabbath was kept. Especially since the Jewish communities had a system in place to notify of feasts based on Jersulem yet chose not to use this system and method for the Sabbath.

[John317]

... In China Sabbath started when the sun set there. In Babylon when the sun set there. In Jerusalem when the sun set there. A little later by Jews in Greece and Rome and wherever else when the sun set where they were. Those living east of Jerusalem started Sabbath earlier and those west later.

Makes good sense. :-)

[ClubV12]

Hmmmm,,,, sounds a lot like the New Year,,, wait, is there an echo in here? :)

[Q.E.D.]

And the beat goes on. . .

[Gibs]

Sabbath begins as the world turns at the end of the sixth day as the sun is setting on it, the 6't/h day as the world turns. Then the first day will begin at that same spot in 24 hours.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.