Hell, what it really is...

[barnz]

So, the conventional wisdom is that Hell is an eternal place of suffering for those who do not believe. People are able to give many verses that seem to support this.

Matthew 25:46

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jude 1:7

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Revelations 14:11

And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

As Adventists, it seems we believe that Hell is more like an event, that when the second coming happens, the wicked are struck dead by the brightness of Christ. So why do we believe this? And what is the proper way to interpret the above verses?

[Guest]

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

This text right here is proof that the burning is not perpetual or forevermore. It says Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the punishment of eternal fire. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No! They are at the bottom of the ocean.

______________________

Mal 4:1,3 For, behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch... And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts.

Can ashes under your feet still be burning? No. Ashes won't burn anymore.

There are more texts like these. The Bible plainly teaches that the wicked will burn up.

[ClubV12]

Not to put to fine a point on it, but the 2nd coming is not yet the final destruction.

At the time of the 2nd coming those "wicked", who have actually survived the seven last great plagues of Revelation (not many) are simply killed by the glory of His coming. No wicked man can stand in the very presence of a Holy God and live.

The "hell fire" sequence of events does not occur until a 1,000 years later, at the THIRD COMING. That follows a review of the final judgment book (which takes a 1,000 years). Then the Lord returns, again, to setup His Kingdom on earth.

ALL the wicked are resurrected, the final judgment is pronounced and every knee shall bow in acknowledgment of a just verdict. The wicked are then rallied under Satan for one last battle to overtake God's city, newly placed on earth. The gates to the city are closed, the battle begins. "Fire" (glory of God?) is called down upon the wicked and consumes them. How long it takes to totally consume any single individual is based according to their works, all of which were duly recorded in the "book" and not "blotted out". Their final death is indeed "forever" and "eternal", never to exist in any form again, ever.

By the way, SOME say even the time frame of being "consumed by fire" is instantaneous. The suffering for your sin's, your deeds not blotted out and covered by the rigtheousness of Christ, is a MENTAL ANGUISH. The knowledge of what you have lost, not your life, but the glories of ever lasting life with the peace, love and harmony of association with heavenly beings. The realization of what you have thrown away. Any physical "torment" pales in comparison and may be welcome relief to the mental torment. I don't know if I buy that concept, but it is rather interesting...

[barnz]

Yes, you are factually correct on your clarifications. I should have been a little more descriptive. The mental anguish is a very interesting point of view that I haven't considered...but then again, how can you have mental anguish if you're dead?

[doug yowell]

Yes, you are factually correct on your clarifications. I should have been a little more descriptive. The mental anguish is a very interesting point of view that I haven't considered...but then again, how can you have mental anguish if you're dead?

Great topic! I've been a SDA for 30 years and I've heard exactly 1 sermon on hell(pardon my French)and that was preached by a head elder of my church 28 rears ago. I've heard many sermon comments on what hell(oops) isn't but never any attempt but the one to try to explain what it will be or how it will go down. How many allusions have you heard to Edwards "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" a sermon which had it's listeners shaking with fear? Today it's either presented as nothing to be afraid of or ignored altogether..Given our "hour of His judgment" message I find this omission kinda disturbing.I'm interested to see what ya'll will come up with.

[ClubV12]

Death will be a welcome relief to that moment, or longer, of the realization of what might have been, what you could have had, what you threw away by choosing the pleasures of sin for a season.

The mental anguish part is very real indeed, and a final eternal death will indeed be a welcome relief. BUT we must also consider how real is the physical anguish (if any) as well? God is merciful and loving, but in no way will He spare the guilty. He is also a God of judgment, He sent His son to die on our behalf, He to has tasted this cup! As such, He is worthy to pronounce and execute the "sentencing phase". How long will it last? I don't know, but I do know it will be merciful AND just however long it is.

Sister White speaks of the death of the wicked as being able to feel pain until every last bit and piece of them is consumed. And that the evil doer is the last to be entirely consumed and remains long after all the wicked have been. From this I gather there will in fact be a physical anguish. Jesus certainly went through very real physical anguish. But note, it was NOT the physical suffering that killed Him, it was the MENTAL anguish of the thought He might be eternally separated from the Father!!!! Death, was a welcome relief...

[BobRyan]

As Adventists, it seems we believe that Hell is more like an event, that when the second coming happens, the wicked are struck dead by the brightness of Christ. So why do we believe this? And what is the proper way to interpret the above verses?

Hell is what John calls "The Lake of fire" in Rev 20 and it burns with "fire and brimstone" as we see in Rev 14:10-11 and Rev 20.

It is not started until after the 1000 years are ended according to Rev 20.

It is not started until after the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20.

Then all the wicked are thrown alive into the lake of Fire - prepared for the devil and his angels.

This is where "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" - they are burned up but firs the "suffer torment in fire and brimstone" Rev 14:10 in the presence of the Lamb and of His Holy ones- the exact amount of torment "owed" by their sins - each sin paid for Luke 12:44-52. No text of scripture says "suffer torment in mental anguish".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

In Matt 10:27-28 Jesus said "NOT to fear those who kill the body but are unnable to kill the soul".

Jesus said that we are to fear him who not only kills but "DESTROYS" BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell.

Thus what John calls the "Lake of fire" in Rev 20 is not only killing the wicked - it is "destroying" BOTH their body AND their soul -- unlike the first death.

Ezek 18 speaking of the SECOND death says "The soul that sins - it shall die".

And thus in that context of the SECOND death - the righteous do NOT die - just as Ezek 18 says.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lysimachus]

"Everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is not endless punishing, nor is "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) endless destroying, anymore than "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is endless saving, or "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is endless judging, or “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12) is endless redeeming, or “everlasting gospel” (Rev 14:6) is endless preaching. The "eternal" pertains to the result, and not to the process. The results or consequences are eternally irrevocable. And of course, it is worthy of mention that the words “everlasting” and “eternal” in the New Testament are both translated from the same Greek word, “aionos”.

[ClubV12]

Good points on the defintions of "eternal" and "forever" you guys.

Bob, as it concerns "mental torment". Lets put a finer point on that last battle for the new city when the gates are closed. I forget where, but Sister White describes that moment where the wicked recognize their great loss in giving up heaven. I think that is relevant in terms of mental anguish, seeing, understanding what they could have had.

At SOME point the wicked realize who/what Satan is and what he has done, they turn on him with a fury. Does this happen BEFORE the attack on the city when fire comes down? OR, are they "perfectly united" in their attack on the city and turning on Satan happened earlier?

At any rate, I would not rule out the mental torment being profound, for whatever reason, along side the physical torment. I won't speculate as to a time frame for one or the other.

[BobRyan]

I agree that when you read the finer details that Ellen White gives - you do see a lot of information about the aspect of mental anguish for the wicked.

But the Bible focus is not on the mental anguish - but rather the "torment in fire and brimstone" Rev 14:10 which clearly would also involve anguish for the wicked.

I am just concerned that some people wish to do away with the very aspect of the lake of fire upon which the Bible is most explicit. That seems to be going the wrong direction IMHO.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

I concur. The problem is moving from one side of the road, in the ditch to the other, still in the ditch!

On the one hand we have the "eternal hell fire crowd" on the other the God is so merciful no one will actually suffer any physical torment crowd.

Mental AND physical torment is a recurring theme in the bible. How long did it take the people of the flood to actually drown? They certainly had time to think about the options. Tieing themselves to animals that would seek high ground and such. I doubt Sodom was instantaneous, they would have time to seek shelter, time to think about it. The armies smitten by the Lord in battle, not all died immediately of their mortal wounds.

I don't know how all this plays out considering the Lords mercy and love, but one thing is clear. Don't under estimate "judgment", the Lord, mighty in battle, will not spare the wicked.

Come to think of it, on the merciful side: We are told that some slaves were treated so harshly they were little better than beasts of the field in that they had no free choice. No possibility of doing anyting more than they were strictly ordered to do by their master. Such as these will not even be resurrected, this life will be all they ever know. They cannot be brought into heaven because they never had the ability to make a choice, they haven't been "tested". And yet, they deserve no punishment for that which they are not responsible.

[doug yowell]

I agree that when you read the finer details that Ellen White gives - you do see a lot of information about the aspect of mental anguish for the wicked.

But the Bible focus is not on the mental anguish - but rather the "torment in fire and brimstone" Rev 14:10 which clearly would also involve anguish for the wicked.

Not completely accurate, Bob. Perhaps more than anyone else in the Bible Jesus really focused on the mental aspect that would accompany the physical. This to me gives hell the horrific nature that the Bible tries to get people to consider. "Weeping and gnashing of teeth", the parable of the 10 virgins,"Lord,Lord, have we not...","more tolerable for Sodom..." Lazarus in Hades implies the mental addition that results from what the rich man missed,ect... While these specific references seem to target the 2nd coming and not necessarily the final punishment I assume that being that humans are a combo of body, mind, spirit that the mental anguish will be equally a part of the suffering as the physical at the final execution also. Yes? No?

[ClubV12]

...or perhaps more suffering than the physical, the bible author doing his best, in his own words to write out what he was shown? In terms man could understand, slapping them upside the head and saying, "Pay attention".

But I am reminded here of the man who is sorry for the punishment of sin vs the heart felt repentance of one who see's their sin in the true light.

At that last moment of judgment, for the wicked, perhaps it is a combination. A "true" repentance, seeing sin in all it's ugliness and welcoming death as the only possible solution. Yet, the terror of punishment remains.

My first statement may divide the camp into two groups. Those who ascribe to "verbal inspiration" where EVERY word is inspired and the hand guided by an angel. And those who believe it "thought inspiration", things revealed to God's pen men, written "mostly" in their own words. At times a combination, like when Ellen White says, "I was told..." "The angel said..." etc.

[BobRyan]

"No scripture is a matter of one person's interpretation - but rather - holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from God" 2Pet 1:20-21

Of course Paul himself claims that his own teaching is "The Word of God" in 1Thess 2.

In any case - I like that version of "What scripture is".

in Christ,

Bob

[12tribes]

"Everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is not endless punishing, nor is "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) endless destroying, anymore than "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is endless saving, or "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is endless judging, or “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12) is endless redeeming, or “everlasting gospel” (Rev 14:6) is endless preaching. The "eternal" pertains to the result, and not to the process. The results or consequences are eternally irrevocable. And of course, it is worthy of mention that the words “everlasting” and “eternal” in the New Testament are both translated from the same Greek word, “aionos”.

Amen just what I was thinking everlasting punishment does not mean everlasting punishing.

Isaiah 1:31

(31) And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Jeremiah 52:13

(13) And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:

This is speaking of Jerusalem it was burned and the text says it shall not be quenched but, it is not burning today, the punishment is eternal not the punishing.

[doug yowell]

Amen just what I was thinking everlasting punishment does not mean everlasting punishing.

the punishment is eternal not the punishing.

And thus the justice of God is in perfect proportion to His mercy!! One of the basic failings of everlasting punishing theology.

[skyblue888]

Have we not been told that the mental anguish that Christ suffered on Calvary will be experienced by the unsaved? Christ's mental agony was so great that He hardly felt His physical pain:

"It was not the pain and ignominy of the cross that caused His inexpressible agony. Christ was the prince of sufferers; but His suffering was from a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that through familiarity with evil, man had become blinded to its enormity. Christ saw how deep is the hold of sin upon the human heart, how few would be willing to break from its power. He knew that without help from God, humanity would perish, and He saw multitudes perishing within reach of abundant help...

"Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God...

"The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt." D.A.753.

sky

[ClubV12]

The "inspiration", verbal vs thought, posts were moved to a new thread, here:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post478992

The "What Adventists Believe" forum.

[John317]

Thanks for posting that notice, Club.