Tidings out of the Northeast

[Lysimachus]

It blows your mind sometimes to see just how solid Adventist foundations have been laid.

Thanks for sharing bro. =]

[Lysimachus]

What if Islam is the king of the north? Who have already planted their tabernacle, the dome of the rock, on the glorious holy mountain.

I really doubt it 12tribes. The more I study Roosenberg's messages, the more I'm convinced. Right now as we speak, they are holding the Daniel 11 Symposium, from the 15th to the 18th. Roosenberg will have opportunity to present his view, and it being prayed that Tie Gibson, James Rapherty, David Asscherick, etc. etc., will open their eyes, as I believe this message will put Adventism back at the forefront as the experts in prophecy.

It just makes so much sense for Islam to be the King of the South. It's simple, straight-forward, and easy to understand. All the other views are cause you to wring your brain in knots.

[phkrause]

— TWENTY —

A Review of Daniel 12

“When Michael Stands Up”

Having finished our textual analysis of Daniel 11, we will now offer a brief survey of Daniel 12. We will discover that this particular chapter will complete the specific passage of Daniel 11:40–45, and serve as the actual conclusion for the entire vision of chapter 11. Overall, Daniel 12 will establish the following prophetic trends: (1) the close of human probation, “time of trouble,” and final deliverance of God’s people (verse 1); (2) the “special resurrection” and the eternal reign of the righteous (verses 2–3); (3) the unsealing of Daniel’s prophecies in the “time of the end” (verses 4–10, 13); and (5) the 1,290-year and 1,335-year time prophecies (verses 11–12).

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which

standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 12:1)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people. Here we see that an individual named “Michael” will “stand” for the people of God at the end of time. In seeking to understand the identity of “Michael,” we should first realize that his actual name means “one like God.” Furthermore, in Jude 9, “Michael”

is also called the “archangel,” a term which can mean either “head messenger” or “leader of the angels.” Other passages also reveal that “Michael” had resurrected Moses into heaven, and cast Satan out of heaven (Revelation 12:7–9). He is also called the “first prince” (Daniel 10:13—margin), “your prince” (Daniel 10:21), and the “great prince” (Daniel 12:1). In this particular passage, He will stand up for the faithful during the “time of trouble” and deliver those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life (Daniel 12:1). Piecing these clues together, there is only one individual that could meet these identifiers: Jesus Christ. And, interestingly

enough, when Christ returns again, He will come with the “voice of the archangel, and the trump of God” (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

We will now examine what it means for “Michael” (Christ) to “stand up.” Before unlocking the meaning of this phrase, we must first observe that there are four different sets of passages that describe Christ as being at the “right hand” of God: (1) nine passages state that He is “seated” at the

“right hand” of God; (2) one passage reveals that He is simply “at” God’s “right hand” (Romans 8:34); (3) one passage states that He is “on” God’s “right hand” (1 Peter 3:22); and (4) one passage describes Christ as “standing” at God’s “right hand” (Acts 7:55–56).

In order to understand what it means for “Michael” to “stand up,” we must examine the fourth category mentioned above, which describes Christ as “standing” at God’s “right hand.” In that particular passage, the deacon Stephen, as he was being stoned to death, saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God” (Acts 7:55–56). This is the

only passage in the Bible that describes Christ as “standing” on God’s “right hand,” and it is mentioned in the context of Stephen’s execution, which took place in A.d. 34 and actually signified the close of probation for ancient Israel. Because Christ was “standing” and not “sitting” when this event took place, “standing” up can be associated with a close of probation. Therefore, as we apply this principle to Daniel 12:1, when “Michael” shall “stand up,” it will signify the close of probation for earth, and the commencement of the “time of trouble.”

And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. This phrase signifies that when Christ concludes His intercessory ministry in the heavenly sanctuary (Revelation 22:11–12), the infamous “time of trouble” will commence. And, “When this time of trouble comes, every case is decided; there is no longer probation, no longer mercy for the impenitent.” This specific

time period is to be the greatest crisis that God’s people will ever be called to endure:

The ‘time of trouble, such as never was,’ is soon to open upon us; and we shall need an experience which we do not now possess

and which many are too indolent to obtain. It is often the case that trouble is greater in anticipation than in reality; but this is not true of the crisis before us. The most vivid presentation cannot reach the magnitude of the ordeal. In that time of trial, every soul must stand for himself before God.

And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Although God’s faithful, last-day believers will be called to endure the “time of trouble,” they will experience a final deliverance when Christ returns again. The names of this faithful group,

i.e., the “144,000,” are to be immortalized in the book of life, and, when Christ comes again, they will stand on “Mt. Zion,” the “sea of glass,” with the “Lamb,” having conquered the “beast,” his “image,” “his mark,” and the “number of his name” (Revelation 14:1, 15:2–3).

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Daniel 12:2–3)

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. In this passage, we see that “many” people will “awake” from the “sleep” of death to reap either “everlasting life” or “everlasting contempt.” When we

compare this passage to John 5:38–39, which states that “all” people will be resurrected, we must conclude that the “many” people mentioned here would not be referring to the “all” who are resurrected at Christ’s second advent; rather, this passage would refer to a “special resurrection” which

will take place just prior to the general resurrection that will occur when Christ returns.

This text also implies that this “special resurrection” will involve two distinct groups who are on opposite sides. The first group will consist of God’s faithful followers who have died in the faith of the “third angel’s message” (Revelation 14:9–12); after describing this specific message, John the

Revelator was given the admonition, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth” (Revelation 14:13), which demonstrates a special blessing for those who keep the “third angel’s message.” Since this particular message began in the year 1844, this “special resurrection” would

consist of the faithful who have died since that year while believing in this specific message.

As she was shown this “special resurrection” in vision, Ellen White confirmed that “The graves were opened, and those who had died in faith under the third angel’s message, keeping the Sabbath, came forth from their dusty beds, glorified, to hear the covenant of peace that God was to make with those who had kept His law.” In a similar statement below, she also stated that, Graves are opened, and ‘many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth … awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.’ Daniel 12:2. All who have died in the faith of the third angel’s message come forth from the tomb glorified, to hear God’s covenant of peace with those who have kept His law.

The second group to experience this “special resurrection” will consist of people who were involved in the crucifixion of Christ, and also others who were especially vehement in their persecution of faithful Christians over the centuries. John the revelator confirmed this, saying, “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which

pierced him” (Revelation 1:7). Christ also told Caiaphas that “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” (Matthew 26:64). Thus, Caiaphas, along with many others, will be raised in this “special resurrection” to see Christ come again in glory:

All who have died in the faith of the third angel’s message come forth from the tomb glorified, to hear God’s covenant of peace with those who have kept His law. ‘They also which pierced Him’ (Revelation 1:7), those that mocked and derided Christ’s dying agonies, and the most violent opposers of His truth and His people, are raised to behold Him in His glory and to see the honor placed upon the loyal and obedient.

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. This passage describes the faithful people of God over the centuries of redemptive history who will reign for ever and ever with Christ in the

eternal kingdom. Though maligned and mistreated by the people of this world (Hebrews 11:31–40), they have remained faithful to Christ and have sought to understand God’s truth, winning many souls to the Lord in the process. As a result, they will be given immortality and receive a crown of glory that will never fade away.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Again, Daniel was told to seal up his book until the “time of the end,” which would begin after the 1,260-year papal Dark Age persecution. Thus, the book of Daniel would be “unsealed” after the year 1798,

and would result in both a greater understanding of Bible prophecy and a tremendous increase and advancement in modern technology.

Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? (Daniel 12:5–6)

Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? Daniel describes two “men” who are conversing about the vision of chapter 11; one asks the other how much time will transpire before the “wonders” of this vision actually come to an “end.”

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters

of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (Daniel 12:7)

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. In this passage, Daniel is told that a “time,” “times,” and a “half ” would transpire, and then the “end” of these prophetic “wonders” would come. We have already identified that the “time,” “times,” and a “half ” refer to the 1,260-year Dark Age reign of the papacy, which, once again, spanned from A.d. 538 to 1798. After this prophetic period is accomplished, then the “end,” or “time of the end,” would actually begin, and span from the year 1798 to the end of time.

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what

shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. (Daniel 12:8–9)

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. After hearing that the “end” of “wonders” would take place after the 1,260-year papal reign, Daniel was told that his book would be “sealed” up and not fully

understood until the “time of the end.” His prophecies would be “unsealed” only after the year 1798; after this pivotal year, these visions would then be examined and understood by faithful Bible students who diligently seek after their meaning.

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. (Daniel 12:10)

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Similar to Daniel 11:33–35, this passage states that “many” would be “tried” during the 1,260-year Dark Age period; yet, when

Daniel’s prophecies are unsealed after 1798, the “wise” would understand them.

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Daniel 12:11)

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Before attempting to understand this 1,290-day prophecy, we should reiterate that (1) the “daily” refers to the replacement of pagan Rome with papal Rome; (2) the “abomination of desolation” refers to the elevation of the papal power and its subsequent removal of both paganism and Christ’s intercessory ministry; and (3) the specific time prophecy of 1,290 prophetic “days” actually translates into 1,290 literal years of actual time.

In essence, this passage states that the 1,290-year prophecy would begin with the elevation of the papacy to power, the complete destruction of paganism, and the papal usurpation of Christ’s intercessory ministry. Furthermore, because this text is quite similar in wording to Daniel 8:11–12 and Daniel 11:31, and these two passages refer to the Dark Age papal reign, we must conclude that the 1,290-year prophecy must also refer to this same period. Since this particular reign ended in 1798, we must also conclude that the 1,290-year prophecy would end in this same year. Spanning 1290 years into the past from 1798 will take us to A.d. 508. This particular year was very significant in the elevation of the papacy and the final destruction of paganism, as the Frankish king Clovis become a powerful tool in behalf of the Catholic Church:

What happened in 508? In 496, Clovis, king of the Franks, became a Roman Catholic. All the other Germanic tribes who had dismantled the Roman Empire were Arians and therefore in opposition to the pope in Rome. Clovis defeated the Visigoths and became the first civil power to join up with the rising Church of Rome. France, therefore, is called the oldest daughter of the Roman Catholic Church.

After his great victory over the Goths in 507 … together with his Burgundian allies, Clovis came to Tours, probably in the middle of 508, to hold a victory celebration. There he met Byzantine envoys who presented to him the decree naming him an honorary consul [of Rome].

Gerhard Pfandl commented by saying that “The joining of the civil and religious powers (Franks and papacy) at that time was an important step in ‘setting up the abomination of desolation,’ which refers to the unscriptural teachings of the papacy and their enforcement through the union of church and state.” He also observed that “It is one of the ironies of history that France, the power that helped the papacy at the beginning of the 1,290 years, was the power that brought about its demise at the end of this time period, when Napoleon in 1798 had Pope Pius VI taken prisoner.” Therefore, the 1,290-year prophecy would begin in 508 when Clovis, a pagan,

barbarian king, having converted from paganism to Catholicism, fully committed his political and military support to the cause of the Roman Catholic Church; it would terminate in 1798, in the very same year that the 1,260-year prophecy had ended.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:12)

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. This passage introduces a third time prophecy which spans 1,335 prophetic “days,” i.e., 1,335 literal years. Up to this point we have seen a 1,260-year period (which went from 538 to 1798) and a 1,290-year period (which went from 1798 back to 508). In

essence, we have gone from 538 to 1798 (1260 years) and back from 1798 to 508 (1,290 years). Thus, because we last left off at the year 508 with the 1,290-year prophecy, we must use this pivotal year as the starting point of the 1,335-year prophecy. Moving forward 1335 years from 508, we will arrive at the year 1843, which turned out to be a significant year in Adventist

history because of the initial proclamation of the “three angels’ messages” (Revelation 14:6–12).

The late Adventist theologian Louise Were confirmed this conclusion by stating, “Beginning at the same date as the 1,290 days … A.d. 508, 1,335 days (literal years) extend to 1843–4, the time when the world-wide proclamation was given, ‘The hour of His Judgment is come’ (Revelation 14:6, 7).” Because the final year of the 2,300-year prophecy of Daniel 8:14 spanned from the fall of 1843 to the fall of 1844, we can

safely conclude that the end of the 1,335-year prophecy parallels this same termination point, also ending in the period of 1843–1844. James White confirmed that “Evidences are conclusive that the 1,335 days ended with the 2,300, with the Midnight Cry in 1844.” Ellen White also noted that

the “great test on time was in 1843 and 1844.”460 In the following quotation below, Adventist pioneer Uriah Smith also advocated that the 1,335-year prophecy actually began in A.d. 508:

Now it is manifestly wrong to date the 1,290 days from the setting up of the papacy, when the prophecy says they are to date from the taking away of paganism, which was thirty years previous. We therefore date the 1,290 days from the year 508; and as the 1,335 days are spoken of in connection with these, no possible reason can be given why they do not commence at the same point. The 1,290 and 1,260 end together in 1798.

Unfortunately, some have misused a particular statement from the pen of Ellen White in order to justify a potential future application of this specific time prophecy. In reality, Mrs. White had actually commented on a particular individual who had been teaching certain doctrinal errors, stating, “We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1,335 days

were ended and numerous errors of his.” Upon first glance, it would appear that Mrs. White had espoused a future application to this 1,335-year prophecy; yet, Gerhard Pfandl offered a perfectly harmonious explanation of this specific quotation:

Some believe that in this statement she [Mrs. White] places the

1,335 days in the future. However, the sentence is generally understood to mean, ‘We told him of some of his errors in the past, [we told him] that the 1,335 days were ended and [we told him] numerous errors of his.’ Otherwise we must ask, why Ellen White reprimanded brother Hewit and not her husband and all the other pioneers who taught that the 1,335 years were ended?

Given these explanations, there have been some recent trends in

Seventh-day Adventism that continue to promote a future application to the 1,260-, 1,290-, and 1,335-day prophecies of Daniel 12. In this future application, these three periods are no longer calculated to be literal years of time, meaning that the 1,260-, 1,290-, and 1,335-day periods are actually

literal days. Furthermore, these three periods are seen to have the same starting point, which would be the passing of a national Sunday law here in America. In other words, each of these three periods would begin with the pivotal point of Sunday legislation in the United States, and then end with

three different significant events that would transpire at the end of time, before the faithful enter into the eternal world.

Therefore, the 1,260 literal days, or 3½ literal years, would transpire from the passing of a national Sunday law and span until the time that probation would close for the entire human race. We must notice that, if this theory were to be true, we could ascertain the time for the close of probation, once a Sunday law is passed. Yet, Ellen White clearly noted in the three quotations below that God has never revealed, nor will He ever reveal to finite human beings, when the close of human probation will take place:

God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when probation will have an end. Those things that are revealed we shall accept for ourselves and for our children; but let us not seek to know that which has been kept secret in the councils of the Almighty.

[There] is no command for anyone to search the Scripture in order to ascertain, if possible, when probation will close. God has no such message for any mortal lips. He would have no mortal tongue declare that which He has hidden in His secret councils.

Men need to be aroused to realize the solemnity of the time, the nearness of the day when human probation shall be ended. God gives no man a message that it will be five years or ten years or twenty years before this earth’s history shall close. He would not give any living being an excuse for delaying the preparation for His appearing.

Also, according to proponents of this “futurist” theory, the 1,290-day period is considered to extend from the Sunday law to the universal death decree. Yet, again, Ellen White spoke of this specific event, but never mentioned exactly when it would happen:

Then I saw the leading men of the earth consulting together, and Satan and his angels busy around them. I saw a writing, copies of which were scattered in different parts of the land, giving orders that unless the saints should yield their peculiar faith, give up the Sabbath, and observe the first day of the week, the people were at liberty after a certain time to put them to death.

This “futurist” theory also extends the 1,335-day prophecy from the national Sunday law to the second advent of Christ. Yet, once again, Jesus stated that God has not revealed when He will return again: “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (Mark 13:32). We should again confirm

that time has no longer been a test for God’s people since 1844; Ellen White noted that,

I have borne the testimony since the passing of the time in 1844, that there should be no definite time set by which to test God’s people. The great test on time was in 1843 and 1844; and all who have set time since these great periods marked in prophecy were deceiving and being deceived.

In light of this clear evidence, we can therefore conclude that the 1,260-year prophecy clearly found its fulfillment in the Dark Age career of the papacy, which spanned from A.d. 538 to 1798. Furthermore, both the 1,290- year and 1,335-year prophecies began in the year 508 and ended in 1798 and 1843–1844 respectively, and clearly have their prophetic fulfillment in the past. Thus, we need not search for some future fulfillment of these time prophecies, as, according to Ellen White, after the year 1844, neither prophetic time nor literal time will ever again be a test for God’s people.

Therefore, any “futurist” view of these three time prophecies of Daniel 12 should be rejected, as these three prophetic periods have clearly met their fulfillment in the past.

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. (Daniel 12:13)

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. Daniel was told in this passage that he would “rest” and “stand” in his “lot at the end of the days.” This statement actually has two meanings: (1) Daniel would “sleep” in death to “rest” from his

labors, and then “stand” in his “lot” during the investigative judgment that would begin at the “end of the days” in 1844; and (2) the prophecies of his book would “rest,” meaning that they would not be understood until the “time of the end” (after 1798), but would “speak” at the “appointed time”

(Habakkuk 2:2–3), and fulfill their role in the closing work of redemption at the end of this earth’s history.

Ellen White especially confirmed this second application by emphasizing that “Daniel is today standing in his lot, and we are to give him place to speak to the people. Our message is to go forth as a lamp that burneth.” “His wonderful prophecies, as recorded by him in chapters 7 to 12 of the

book bearing his name, were not fully understood even by the prophet himself,” but “before his life labors closed, he was given the blessed assurance that ‘at the end of the days’—in the closing period of this world’s history— he would again be permitted to stand in his lot and place.”

Furthermore, “In his vision of the last days … Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days.” Therefore, “As we near the close of this world’s history, the prophecies recorded by Daniel demand our

special attention, as they relate to the very time in which we are living. …‘The wise shall understand’ (verse 10), was spoken of the visions of Daniel that were to be unsealed in the latter days.”

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

What if Islam is the king of the north? Who have already planted their tabernacle, the dome of the rock, on the glorious holy mountain.

I really doubt it 12tribes. The more I study Roosenberg's messages, the more I'm convinced. Right now as we speak, they are holding the Daniel 11 Symposium, from the 15th to the 18th. Roosenberg will have opportunity to present his view, and it being prayed that Tie Gibson, James Rapherty, David Asscherick, etc. etc., will open their eyes, as I believe this message will put Adventism back at the forefront as the experts in prophecy.

It just makes so much sense for Islam to be the King of the South. It's simple, straight-forward, and easy to understand. All the other views are cause you to wring your brain in knots.

I have a problem believing that the Papacy is the king of the north because in 11:45 the king of the north comes to an end and then in 12:1 is the close of probation and that is when the king of the north comes to an end. The Papacy do not come to an end at the close of probation as does the king of the north.

[phkrause]

It blows your mind sometimes to see just how solid Adventist foundations have been laid.

Thanks for sharing bro. =]

Thanks, I totally agree. I've really enjoyed this book. I saw in the AR that Jacques B. Doukhan has written two books, one is called "Secrets of Daniel" and the other one "Secrets of Revelation" they should be really interesting.

[phkrause]

— TWENTY-ONE —

Putting the Pieces Together

Paraphrasing Daniel 11

Having accomplished our overall goal of developing a basic chronology of Daniel 11, it will now prove useful to present a general paraphrase of the entire chapter. An interpretation of each phrase will be contained in brackets in order to provide an easy readability, and trace the major historical trends outlined in each specific passage.

“Also I [the angel Gabriel] in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him [Daniel]. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia [Cambyses,

False Smerdis, and Darius I OR Cambyses, Darius I, and Xerxes]; and the fourth [Xerxes OR Artaxerxes] shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia [Greek Empire]” (Daniel 11:1–2).

“And a mighty king [Alexander the Great] shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will [conquer a vast territory]. And when he shall stand up [at height of his power], his kingdom

shall be broken [his death, 323 b.c.], and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven [four Hellenistic empires]; and not to his posterity [Alexander had no legitimate heirs], nor according to his dominion which he ruled [his former kingdom would not be under one ruler]: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those [the four former generals of Alexander—Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus, and Seleucus]” (Daniel 11:3–4).

“And the king of the south [Ptolemy I Soter] shall be strong, and one of his princes [Seleucus I Nicator]; and he [Seleucus I] shall be strong above him [Ptolemy I], and have dominion [gain the territory of Syria]; his dominion shall be a great dominion [largest territory of the Hellenistic empires]. And in the end of years [after the first and second Syrian

Wars] they [Ptolemy II Philadelphus and Antiochus I Soter] shall join themselves together [conclude peace in 252 b.c.]; for the king’s daughter [Berenice, daughter of Ptolemy II] of the south [Egypt] shall come to the king of the north [Antiochus II Theos, Syria] to make an agreement [peace through a marriage alliance]: but she [Berenice] shall not retain

the power of the arm [lose her position from the former queen Laodice]; neither shall he [Antiochus II] stand [assassinated by Laodice], nor his arm [Berenice’s son]: but she [Berenice] shall be given up [executed by Laodice], and they that brought her [execution of her attendants also], and he that begat her [“she begat,” her son], and he that strengthened her in these times [Antiochus II]” (Daniel 11:5–6).

“But out of a branch of her [Berenice’s] roots [family] shall one [Ptolemy III Euergetes] stand up in his estate [assume the throne of Egypt], which shall come with an army [launch an invasion], and shall

enter into the fortress of the king of the north [Seleucid Syria], and shall deal against them [attempt to exact revenge for his sister’s death], and shall prevail [win the Third Syrian War]: And shall also carry captives

into Egypt their gods [recover pagan idols captured from Egypt by the Persians in former conquests], with their princes [take captives to Egypt], and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold [spoils of war];

and he [Ptolemy III] shall continue more years [died in 221 b.c.] than the king of the north [Seleucus II, died in 226 b.c.]. So the king of the south [Ptolemy III] shall come into his [Seleucus’] kingdom [Syria], and shall return into his own land [Egypt]” (Daniel 11:7–9).

“But his [Seleucus’] sons [Seleucus III Ceraunus Soter and Antiochus III Magnus] shall be stirred up [desire to war against Egypt], and shall

assemble a multitude of great forces [raise a large army]: and one [one son, Antiochus III] shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through [start the Fourth Syrian War]: then shall he [Antiochus III] return [fight against Egypt], and be stirred up, even to his [Ptolemy IV Philopater’s] fortress” (Daniel 11:10).

“And the king of the south [Ptolemy IV] shall be moved with choler [raise a large army], and shall come forth and fight with him [continue the Fourth Syrian War], even with the king of the north [Antiochus III]: and he [Antiochus III] shall set forth a great multitude [a large army]; but the multitude [Antiochus’ army] shall be given into his [Ptolemy’s] hand [Ptolemy IV would defeat Antiochus III at the Battle of Raphia, 217

b.c.]. And when he [Ptolemy IV] hath taken away the multitude [Syrian army], his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down many ten thousands: but he [Ptolemy IV] shall not be strengthened by it [not complete

the conquest of Syria]. For the king of the north [Antiochus III] shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former [start the Fifth Syrian War], and shall certainly come after certain years [he regrouped from 212–204 b.c.] with a great army and with much riches [Antiochus III would defeat Ptolemy V Epiphanes at the Battle of the Panium, 201–200 b.c., driving Egypt out of Judeo-Palestine once and for all]” (Daniel 11:11–13).

“And in those times [after the Fifth Syrian War] there shall many stand up [make war] against the king of the south [Egypt]: also the robbers of thy people [Seleucid-Syrian invaders under Antiochus IV Epiphanes]

shall exalt themselves [attempt to eliminate Judaism] to establish the vision [complete the elimination of God’s people]; but they shall fall [the Seleucid-Syrian Empire would collapse by 64–63 b.c.]” (Daniel 11:14).

“So the king of the north [Seleucid Syria, Antiochus IV] shall come [invade Egypt, 169–168 b.c.], and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities [Memphis, Alexandria, and others]: and the arms of the south [the Egyptian army] shall not withstand [fall prey to a Syrian invasion], neither his chosen people [the Jewish people couldn’t resist the Syrian occupation of Judea], neither shall there be any strength to withstand [Seleucid Syria would dominate Judea and Egypt under Antiochus IV Epiphanes]” (Daniel 11:15).

“But he [pagan Rome] that cometh against him [Seleucid Syria, Antiochus IV] shall do according to his own will [cast Antiochus IV out of Egypt, aid Jewish people against Syria through “Jewish league”], and

none shall stand before him [will subjugate Syria and become the next “king of the north”]: and he [pagan Rome under Pompey the Great] shall stand in the glorious land [Judeo-Palestine], which by his hand shall be consumed [64–63 b.c.]. He [pagan Rome under Julius Caesar] shall also set his face to enter [Egypt] with the strength of his whole kingdom [all Caesar’s military resources], and upright ones with him [Jewish forces loyal to Caesar led by Antipater]; thus shall he do [begin the Roman subjugation of Egypt]: and he shall give him the daughter of women [Cleopatra], corrupting her [making her his mistress]: but she shall not

stand on his side, neither be for him [could not prevent his assassination]” (Daniel 11:16–17).

“After this [the occupation of Egypt] shall he [Caesar] turn his face unto the isles [Mediterranean basin], and shall take many [eliminate all

political enemies]: but a prince for his own behalf [Mark Antony] shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease [protect Caesar’s political interests in Rome]; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn

upon him [defend Caesar against the Roman senate]. Then he [Caesar] shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land [Rome]: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found [Caesar’s assassination, 44 b.c.]”

(Daniel 11:18–19).

“Then shall stand up in his [Caesar’s] estate a raiser of taxes [Caesar Augustus, reign 27 b.c. to A.d. 14] in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle [die a peaceful

death, A.d. 14]. And in his [Augustus’] estate shall stand up a vile person [Tiberius Caesar, reign A.d. 14 to 37], to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably [peaceful

transference of power after Augustus’ death], and obtain the kingdom by flatteries [false flattery of Roman senate]. And with the arms of a flood shall they [alleged seditionists] be overflown from before him, and shall be broken [executed]; yea, also the prince of the covenant [crucifixion of Christ, A.d. 31]” (Daniel 11:20–22).

“And after the league [Jewish league, 161 b.c.] made with him [pagan Rome] he shall work deceitfully [use the league for furthering Roman interests in the eastern regions]: for he shall come up [enter Judeo-Syria,

64–63 b.c.], and shall become strong with a small people [Judeo-Palestine]. He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province [Syria, Judea, Egypt]; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers’ fathers [Titus’ destruction of Jerusalem, A.d. 70]; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches [dispersion of Jewish people

after the destruction of Jerusalem]: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds [persecution of Christians], even for a time [360 years, 48 b.c. to A.d. 313 OR 31 b.c. to A.d. 330]” (Daniel 11:23–24).

“And he [pagan Rome, Octavian, the “king of the north”] shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south [Egypt and Cleopatra under Mark Antony] with a great army; and the king of the south [Antony] shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he [Antony] shall not stand [Octavian defeated him in the Battle of Actium, 31 b.c.]: for they shall forecast devices against him. Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him [Cleopatra abandoned Antony during Actium], and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain [Antony’s army and navy would be defeated]”

(Daniel 11:25–26).

“And both these kings’ [Octavian, Antony] hearts shall be to do mischief [they would both desire control of Roman world], and they shall speak lies at one table [form false alliances]; but it shall not prosper [these agreements wouldn’t last]: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed [Antony would be defeated in 31 b.c. and commit suicide in 30 b.c.]. Then shall he [Octavian, later Caesar Augustus] return into his land [Rome] with great riches [wealth of Egypt]; and his [pagan Rome’s, Octavian’s] heart shall be against the holy covenant [Christianity, Judeo-Palestine]; and he shall do exploits [persecute Christians, settle the eastern

territories], and return to his own land [Rome]” (Daniel 11:27–28).

“At the time appointed [between A.d. 313 and 330] he [pagan Rome, Constantine the Great] shall return [to the eastern territories], and come toward the south [move capital of Roman Empire to Constantinople, toward

Egypt, but not into Egypt itself]; but it shall not be as the former [not for purposes of war, as in time of Caesar and Octavian], or as the latter [the last-day war between the “king of the north” and “south” in the time

of the end]. For the ships of Chittim [Germanic tribal invasions] shall come against him [pagan Rome]: therefore he [paganism and papalism] shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant

[paganism and papalism try to destroy Christianity]: so shall he do; he shall even return [make final attempt to survive], and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant [paganism enters Christianity, papacy corrupts and persecutes Christians]” (Daniel 11:29–30).

“And arms [military might, i.e., Clovis] shall stand on his part [in behalf of papal Rome], and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength [remove paganism, corrupt earthly church with false doctrine, usurp Christ’s intercession in heavenly sanctuary], and shall take away the daily sacrifice [remove paganism, turn people’s hearts away from Christ’s intercessory ministry], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate [set up the papacy in power over the church, state, and the conscience

of Christians]. And such as do wickedly against the covenant [those who turn against the gospel through recantation] shall he [papacy, the next “king of the north”] corrupt by flatteries [flatter with prospects of

position and material gain]: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits [faithful followers of God will remain faithful, preach the truth and win many true converts]” (Daniel 11:31–32).

“And they that understand among the people [faithful Christians] shall instruct many [spread the light of truth]: yet they [the faithful] shall fall by the sword [war], and by flame [burned at stake], by captivity [prison], and by spoil [economic hardships], many days [1,260 years, A.d. 538–1798]. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help [there will be some helpers of the truth]: but many shall cleave to them [the faithful] with flatteries [prospects of material, financial gain]. And some of them of understanding [the faithful] shall

fall [be martyred], to try them, and to purge, and to make them white [purification through trial], even to the time of the end [to the year 1798]: because it is yet for a time appointed [Dark Age papal persecutions,

538–1798]” (Daniel 11:33–35).

“And the king [papal Rome, the “king of the north”] shall do according to his will [exercise power over all of Christendom]; and he shall exalt himself [claim to be head of the Church], and magnify himself above every

god [commit blasphemy], and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods [claim to be equal with God and have the power to forgive sins], and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished [reign from 538 to 1798]: for that that is determined shall be done [God foresaw that the papacy would rule for 1,260 years]” (Daniel 11:36).

“Neither shall he [papal Rome] regard the God of his fathers [the true God], nor the desire of women [celibacy of Catholic clergy], nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all [papal claim to equality

with God]. But in his estate [position] shall he honour the God of forces [use military force to secure homage of Europe]: and a god whom his fathers knew not [virgin Mary] shall he honour with gold, and silver, and

with precious stones, and pleasant things [Mary crowned with honor and authority]. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds [Christendom] with a strange god [virgin Mary], whom he shall acknowledge and increase

with glory: and he shall cause them [Mary and the saints] to rule over many [Christendom], and shall divide the land for gain [territories divided into dioceses for economic gain]” (Daniel 11:37–39).

“And at the time of the end [sometime after A.d. 1798] shall the king of the south [Soviet atheistic communism] push at him [war against papal

interests]: and the king of the north [papal Rome in its “healed wound” state after 1929] shall come against him [Soviet atheistic communism] like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships [war against Soviet atheistic communism]; and he shall enter into the countries [former Soviet bloc nations], and shall overflow and pass over [destroy the Soviet Union by the end of 1991]” (Daniel 11:40).

“He [papal Rome] shall enter also into the glorious land [Christian Church through Sunday legislation], and many countries shall be overthrown [many individuals and countries will submit to Sunday legislation]: but these shall escape out of his hand [refuse to submit to Sunday

legislation], even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon [spiritual Babylonians, members of non-Christian, heathen religions, and worldly people who exit all apostate religions]” (Daniel 11:41).

“He [papal Rome] shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries [former Soviet countries]: and the land of Egypt [remaining communist countries around the world] shall not escape [submit to Sunday legislation]. But he [papal Rome] shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things [spiritual and material wealth] of Egypt [former Soviet countries and remaining communist

countries who submit to Sunday legislation]: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [Islamic nations of the world] shall be at his steps [a close spiritual competitor who will eventually submit to Sunday legislation]” (Daniel 11:42–43).

“But tidings out of the east and out of the north [message of Seventhday Adventism, loud cry of three angels’ messages] shall trouble him [hinder work of papacy]: therefore he [papal Rome] shall go forth

with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many [cast faithful Sabbath-keepers into great tribulation]. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas [secure a global union of church and state among the nations of the world to force worldwide compliance

with Sunday legislation] in the glorious holy mountain [144,000, faithful Sabbath-keepers forced to comply with Sunday legislation also]; yet he shall come to his end [144,000 will remain faithful to the Sabbath, and the papacy will be destroyed at second coming of Christ], and none shall help him [her own followers will turn on her, cause her eventual collapse]” (Daniel 11:44–45).

Overall, as we survey Daniel 11:1–45, we can see the larger scope of major trends in human history within the context of biblical prophecy. Clearly the historical trends outlined in this chapter highlight the influence of the different empires of history that had a direct effect on the chosen people of God. We can be greatly encouraged by the fact that this chapter

concludes with the eventual triumph of God’s faithful followers at the end of time.

[phkrause]

— TWENTY-TWO —

Summary & Conclusions

Some Final Thoughts on Daniel 11

As we reflect on what we have discovered in our journey to establish a basic historical chronology of Daniel 11, we can draw several conclusions with a high degree of certainty. Overall, this chapter can be divided into five general sections that can be clearly assigned to specific historical trends in human history.

We have discovered that the passage of Daniel 11:1–4 describes

Media-Persia (539–331 b.c.), Greece (331–168 b.c.), Alexander the Great (356–323 b.c.), and the four Hellenistic kingdoms that were led by four of Alexander’s former generals, which formed shortly after the famous Battle of Ipsus in 301 b.c. These four kingdoms would consist of the following: (1) Greco-Macedonia, led by Cassander; (2) Thrace and Asia Minor, led

by Lysimachus; (3) Syria and the East, led by Seleucus; and (4) Egypt and Judeo-Palestine, led by Ptolemy. After the Battle of Corupedium (281 b.c.), where Lysimachus was defeated and killed by Seleucus, these four kingdoms would be reduced to three Hellenistic monarchies that would endure until the rise of pagan Rome: (1) Antigonid Macedonia; (2) Seleucid Syria; and (3) Ptolemaic Egypt.

The passage of Daniel 11:5–15 offers a description of the “Five Syrian Wars” that were fought between Ptolemaic Egypt (the “king of the south”) and Seleucid Syria (the “king of the north”); these conflicts actually took place over the region of Judeo-Palestine and spanned the reigns of several

Ptolemaic and Seleucid kings over many years. The “First Syrian War” (276–271 b.c.) was fought between Ptolemy II Philadelphus and Antiochus I Soter. The “Second Syrian War” (261–252 b.c.) was fought between Antiochus II Theos and Ptolemy II Philadelphus. The “Third Syrian War” (246–240 b.c.) was fought between Ptolemy III Euergetes and Seleucus II

Callinicus. The “Fourth Syrian War” (219–217 b.c.) was fought between Antiochus III Magnus and Ptolemy IV Philopater. The “Fifth Syrian War” (202–199 b.c.) was fought between Antiochus III Magnus and Ptolemy V Epiphanes. In short, these wars were a result of an initial conflict between Ptolemy I Soter and Seleucus I Nicator over the occupation of the holy land that took place after the Battle of Ipsus (301 b.c.).

As we move into the passage of Daniel 11:16–30, we find a clear transition into the career of pagan Rome (168 b.c. to A.d. 476). This power would “replace” Syria as the next “king of the north” and eventually subjugate the three remaining Hellenistic kingdoms: (1) Greco-Macedonia was subjugated after the Battle of Pydna in 168 b.c.; (2) Judeo-Syria was subjugated

by the Roman general Pompey in 64–63 b.c.; and (3) Egypt was subjugated through the influence of both Julius Caesar and Octavian (Caesar Augustus) from 48–30 b.c.

In short, verses 16–30 cover ten general historical trends in pagan Roman history: (1) the subjugation of Palestine by Pompey (verse 16); (2) the involvement of Julius Caesar in Egyptian affairs and his eventual assassination (verses 17–19); (3) the rise of Caesar Augustus, the “raiser of taxes,” who died a peaceful death (verse 20); (4) the rise of Tiberius Caesar, the “vile person,” under whose reign Christ was crucified (verses 21–22); (5) a Judeo-Roman “league” (verse 23); (6) the Roman subjugation of Syria, Judea, and Egypt, which would include the destruction of Jerusalem in A.d. 70 (verse 24); (7) two separate conflicts over Hellenistic Egypt, i.e., Caesar versus Pompey and Octavian versus Antony (verses 25–28); (8) the rise of Constantine the Great, the end of Christian persecution, and the dedication of Constantinople (verse 29); (9) the Germanic invasions that caused the collapse of western Rome (verse 30); and (10) the eventual triumph of Christianity, the collapse of paganism, and the emergence of papal Rome (verse 30).

The next section, Daniel 11:31–39, offers a clear description of theDark Age career of the papal Roman Empire (A.d. 538–1798), who “replaced” pagan Rome as the next “king of the north.” Five general trends in papal Roman history can be ascertained from this passage: (1) the complete destruction of both paganism and Arian Christianity through the influence of the papacy (verse 31); (2) the 1,260-year Dark Age period of

papal Roman persecution against God’s faithful followers (verses 32–35); (3) the exaltation of the papal power to the level of God (verses 36–37); (4) the papal Roman exaltation of a “strange god,” i.e., the virgin Mary (verse 38), and (5) the division of Europe into dioceses for the purpose of material

and financial gain (verse 39).

As we move into Daniel 11:40–45, we see a description of the activities of a resurrected, resurgent papal Rome in its “healed wound” phase of existence after the year 1798. This power is called the “king of the north” because: (1) it is the final power in all prior prophecies of Daniel, and Daniel 11 is no exception; (2) the phrase “king of the north” is one of many phrases used in the Bible to describe the papacy; (3) the “north” describes the location of God’s throne, and since the papacy assumes the place of God, it must be the “king of the north;” (4) ancient Babylon came from the “north” to conquer ancient Israel, and since spiritual Babylon is another

description of the papacy, it must also be the spiritual power of the “king of the north;” and (5) the “replacement principle” dictates that when pagan Rome subjugated Syria, it replaced this power as the “king of the north.” Therefore, when the papacy replaced paganism, it would then also “replace”

both Syria and pagan Rome as the “king of the north.”

In Daniel 11:40, we find a continuation of the war between the “king of the north” and the “king of the south.” Having already identified the “king of the north” as the papacy, we have defined the “king of the south” as a symbol of Soviet atheistic communism. With the help of the United States, the papacy exercised its global, religio-political influence to hasten the demise of communism in Eastern Europe. By the end of 1991, the Soviet Union had finally collapsed, and the former Soviet bloc nations once again became open to Christian influences; they now serve as ripe evangelistic fields for Roman Catholicism.

The specific passage of Daniel 11:41 actually describes the entrance of the papacy into the “glorious land” of the Christian Church, which would include Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestantism, Seventhday Adventism, and all versions of non-Catholic Christianity. This will be

accomplished through the vehicle of Sunday legislation, because Sunday sacredness is Rome’s “mark,” or “sign,” of authority. As the Christian world unites with Rome on this specific issue, she will once again have full control of the “glorious land” of Christendom. Yet, this passage also states

that “Edom,” “Moab,” and the “chief of the children of Ammon” will “escape” the influence of the papacy; this means that there will be a group of people who will not submit to Sunday sacredness. They will make their stand for Christ and resist Rome’s authority by obeying the seventh-day Sabbath. This particular group will consist of both faithful Seventh-day

Adventists and faithful Sabbath-keepers around the world who exit the world’s apostate religions.

Daniel 11:42–43 describes the papal agenda to bring the former Soviet bloc nations and remaining communist countries of the world into compliance with Sunday legislation. This passage also hints that this papal agenda will eventually spread to all the countries of the world. Even the “Libyans” and “Ethiopians,” symbolic of the Islamic nations of the world (concentrated mostly in the Middle East and Africa), will come into compliance with Sunday legislation. Islam is actually right at Rome’s “steps” as a close spiritual competitor, but will eventually follow in her “steps” by complying with Sunday legislation. We should remember that Islam and Catholicism

hold the common ground of the veneration of the virgin Mary.

The final two verses of Daniel 11, Daniel 11:44–45, describe the papal Roman effort to destroy Seventh-day Adventism and bring God’s last-day faithful group, the “144,000,” into compliance with global Sunday legislation. In this passage, the “tidings” form the “east” and “north,” a Gospel message known as the three angels’ messages (Revelation 14:6–12), will

“trouble” the papacy, hindering her desire for global domination. The Seventh-day Adventist movement has this specific message within its spiritual borders, and exalts the true seventh-day Sabbath in the face of Sunday exaltation.

As these “tidings” go forth to warn the world of Rome’s agenda, she will respond with great wrath to persecute and eliminate all faithful Seventhday Adventists and other faithful Sabbath-keepers who remain loyal to Jesus Christ. Eventually, the “144,000,” the “glorious holy mountain,” will

triumph in a spiritual sense, remaining faithful through a global union of church and state that will attempt to force them to comply with Sunday sacredness. Because of this great victory, they will be delivered at the second coming of Christ, translated alive without ever dying, after having endured the greatest crisis that any group of God’s faithful people have ever been called to endure. And, while Christ delivers the “144,000” at His second advent, He will also destroy the papacy and bring her power to an end once and for all.

Having provided this detailed summary of what we have discovered in our study of Daniel 11, I would like to conclude this work by making a few observations. First, I would like you as the reader to realize that, while I believe that the views presented in this book are solid, I don’t believe that

they are absolutely infallible. God will give greater light on these prophecies as we continue to progress toward the close of time. Furthermore, when considering the specific passage of Daniel 11:23–28, it is my understanding that these verses address very specific events in the career of pagan Rome; yet, you may choose to assign other historical trends to this

particular passage.

Overall, this work is more historical than theological in nature, and is definitely a work in progress. It is essentially the result of my own personal quest to understand Daniel 11. Also, the specific passage of Daniel 11:40–45 is one that we need to pay very close attention to, as we are living in the days of this particular portion of the vision. More specifically, we are between verses 40 and 41; the Soviet Union fell in 1991 (verse 40), and we have not yet seen Rome fully enter the “glorious land” through Sunday legislation—

this event is still future (verse 41).

Yet, in light of this fact, we need to make sure that we are preparing for the final crisis that Daniel described in verses 41–45. In addition to helping to provide a workable chronology of Daniel 11, I hope by the grace of God that this work has encouraged you to continue to prepare for the final events of this earth’s history, because we have not a moment to lose. Very soon, we, like Daniel, will all have to stand in our lot at the “end of days” (Daniel 12:13), and the central theme that will polarize those who follow Christ and those who follow the antichrist will consist of the Sabbath-Sunday issue. Please notice this final comparison chart that blends the specific chapters of Daniel 2, 7, 8, and 11, along with Revelation 13 and Revelation 17:

(will scan and post chart as soon as I can, either at the end of this post or a new post)

As we bring our study to a close, we must consider some crucial questions—Are we ready to remain faithful to Jesus Christ and the true seventh-day Sabbath, even when under the pressure of a death decree? Will we stand up to both “live” and “proclaim” God’s Gospel “tidings” from the “east” and the “north,” i.e., the three angels’ messages, so that the people of the world will hear the call to come out of spiritual Babylon and into the true message for this time? As we consider the “lot” that God has called us to “stand in” during these last days, we should sense the divine urgency to

proclaim these “tidings out of the northeast,” the final warning message to a dying world. It is my prayer that this work, through the divine aid of the Holy Spirit, has helped to rekindle this sense of urgency in your heart to both “live” and “give” these gospel “tidings out of the northeast” in these

final hours of earth’s history. May we allow God to use us in a powerful way during this final era of redemptive history so that we might fulfill our appointed place in His sovereign plan. Amen.

[miz3]

Hope your not breaking any copyright laws?

I would hate to see carted off to jail and Club Adventist shut down.

[miz3]

After one reads all this one can see how "simple" it is. So simple that a baby reading the Bible and the Bible only could figure this out.

Certainly a fifth grader reading the Bible and the Bible only could see "all this" by just surface reading the Biblical passages.

It is just tooooooo funny for words.

[12tribes]

How can the Papacy be the king of the north when the king of the north comes to an end at the start of the time of trouble? While the Papacy are there till the end.

Daniel 11:45

(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1

(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I asked this question before but, received no answer. I hope I receive an answer this time.

[miz3]

How can the Papacy be the king of the north when the king of the north comes to an end at the start of the time of trouble? While the Papacy are there till the end.

Daniel 11:45

(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1

(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I asked this question before but, received no answer. I hope I receive an answer this time.

Could it be there is no answer to your question.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

How can the Papacy be the king of the north when the king of the north comes to an end at the start of the time of trouble? While the Papacy are there till the end.

Daniel 11:45

(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1

(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I asked this question before but, received no answer. I hope I receive an answer this time.

Could it be there is no answer to your question.

Or could it be that the Papacy is not the king of the north as they say it is?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Could it be there is no answer to your question.

Or could it be that the Papacy is not the king of the north as they say it is?

That's what I meant by "no answer". The Papacy has always been in the SDA Church .org's cross-hairs from its inception.

[12tribes]

That's what I meant by "no answer". The Papacy has always been in the SDA Church .org's cross-hairs from its inception.

This is a question that I have always asked in church to people who say that the Papacy is the king of the north and never receive an answer they always avoid the question. A pastor even said to me that he did not believe the Papacy to be the king of the north but, teaches it because the conference tells him.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

That's what I meant by "no answer". The Papacy has always been in the SDA Church .org's cross-hairs from its inception.

This is a question that I have always asked in church to people who say that the Papacy is the king of the north and never receive an answer they always avoid the question. A pastor even said to me that he did not believe the Papacy to be the king of the north but, teaches it because the conference tells him.

I believe exactly what you are saying. The SDA Church .org has problems with Prophecy. This is mostly because they follow the "beliefs" of Ellen White which are not always Biblical but often come out of her training as a true child of the Protestant Reformation.

I am not bashing the Protestant Reformation. I thank God for the Protestant Reformation. However, the Protestant Reformation did not have all answers. They got many things wrong. Nor should we expect them to always be right and have everything down pat.

Remember the Protestant Reformation's big contribution was to get the Bible freed from the monastery walls and out to the general populace. That alone was a monumental achievement.

[12tribes]

I believe in EGW and am an SDA but, I disagree with the teaching that the Papacy is the king of the north because of the question I asked

[miz3]

I believe in EGW and am an SDA but, I disagree with the teaching that the Papacy is the king of the north because of the question I asked

Ok.

[12tribes]

Daniel 11 is literal it is not symbolic the glorious holy mountain therefore must be in Jerusalem.

[12tribes]

How can the Papacy be the king of the north when the king of the north comes to an end at the start of the time of trouble? While the Papacy are there till the end.

Daniel 11:45

(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1

(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I asked this question before but, received no answer. I hope I receive an answer this time.

Just wanted to put this question up again so I can receive an answer