Atheist scientists asking for help with their Elephant

[Dr. Shane]

Lots of people who believe in it don't live happy lives...

There are many destructive forms of religion out there. That is true. There are even many Adventists that twist our faith into a destructive version. But pure, Biblical religion is all about love. It brings peace, hope and happiness in this life regardless of what the afterlife brings.

[SivartM]

So you're in favour of people believing anything that makes them happy, or can people only be happy if they believe in an afterlife?

[Dr. Shane]

Study after study have shown that people of faith are happier on average than those who do not claim to adhere to a religious faith. That pretty much applies across religious lines beit Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. There certainly does seem to be a spiritual element to humanity that contributes to happiness.

I think that if people are going to embrace faith, they should embrace that which they believe is most probably worshiping the true God. I think that would be clearly Adventism or Catholicism. I have studied world religions and that is my conclusion. Obviously of the two, I believe Adventism is the right road but outside of those two, I have come to the point where I see little credibility in them. Could I be wrong? Of course, so I pray that if there is a God, He will only hold me accountable for the light I had. That is the most I can hope for.

[SivartM]

That's good for you, but it's not nearly so clear-cut for most people; why are only Adventism and Catholicism viable options for you? And before you even narrow it down to Christianity you are assuming that people are looking for the "true God", which only leaves the monotheistic religions.

I'm not saying that spirituality does not influence happiness, but I don't think that it is required for happiness.

[Igakusei]

I personally know several people who tried for many years to be good SDAs, and for them it was like a bad relationship with an abusive boyfriend that they kept going back to because they thought it was good for them. Just in my experience with them, they are orders of magnitude more happy and self-assured now that they've left religion behind.

For me personally it was more about the cognitive dissonance arising from trying to believe so many mutually contradictive things, but there were some emotional aspects for me as well.

I don't doubt that religion provides great benefit for many people, but in my experience it's certainly not for everyone.

[fccool]

Quote:

Study after study have shown that people of faith are happier on average than those who do not claim to adhere to a religious faith. That pretty much applies across religious lines beit Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. There certainly does seem to be a spiritual element to humanity that contributes to happiness.

And how would you measure the amount of "happiness" that person has ?

Depending on a frame of reference, one can define it as just about anything.

Is happiness lack of challenges? Some people are more happy when they are challenged, some people are more happy and satisfied when they have less challenges.

Some people are more happy without children. Some people are more happy with children.

Let's be honest about it. Happiness is a fulfillment of ever-changing personal preferences.

I always hear from the pulpit, " Well, so and so achieved it all, had money, fame, and still did not feel happy." It's a matter of personal preference. Likewise, the religious view of happiness is re-framed in terms of "true happiness" that can't exist outside of that belief . They think that they are happy even when they are not, because they are taught that they should be. Such was the bases for keeping the slaves slaving away, and the uneducated masses from rebelling.

Yes, you have a terrible life her and now, but you are happy, because in the afterlife God will reward you, and punish those evil people who take advantage of you. But, for now, just let them and suffer through it the best you can. You are happy.

Of itself, such concept is not a proof of anything. Measuring something without a common frame of reference misleading.

Most people who approach reality with some sense of realism are "unhappy" because they are solving real problems , and not simply having faith that these problems will one day be solved via miracle from God.

In fact, altruism results from being unhappy about certain situation that other people are unhappy about. And not running around them saying "Hey, look how happy I am, believe the way I do, and you will be happy too!", while ignoring their problems.

[cardw]

And how would you measure the amount of "happiness" that person has ?

The one study that I am aware of measures happiness by the percentage of the day that a culture or individual spends laughing or smiling.

Here is a PDF of MIT discussion of happiness and how it relates to economics.

Happiness: A Revolution in Economics

In the one study done on cultures it came out that a naturally occurring atheistic culture called the Piraha were the happiest culture on the planet because they spent 70 percent of their day laughing or smiling.

[Dr. Shane]

That's good for you, but it's not nearly so clear-cut for most people

[Igakusei]

I'm quite acquainted with your capacity for self-deception, Shane. Given the former, I don't value your experience nearly as highly as you do.

[Dr. Shane]

In the one study done on cultures it came out that a naturally occurring atheistic culture called the Piraha were the happiest culture on the planet because they spent 70 percent of their day laughing or smiling.

[Dr. Shane]

I personally know several people who tried for many years to be good SDAs

Indeed there are those that can even twist the Adventist faith into something that is abusive. Of course that is evidence of the devil at work in the church. Pure Biblical doctrine is all about love and brings hope, peace and love like none other.

[SivartM]

It is if they choose so. Many people do not realize the power of choice.

[Dr. Shane]

And how would you measure the amount of "happiness" that person has ?

I honestly haven't read the internals of all the studies I have seen. I do know that in some they just ask people to rate their level of happiness on a scale of 1 to 10.

[Dr. Shane]

I'm quite acquainted with your capacity for self-deception, Shane.

Self-deception is when a person believes their own lies. That doesn't describe me. Quite to the contrary in fact. I do a daily inventory and when I am wrong, I promptly admit it. I am wrong quite often and have become accustomed to admitting it.

What you mistake for self-deception is probably that I choose to believe despite my doubts. I don't let my doubts control my decisions. Thus I choose to believe in God despite any doubts I may have. That is not self-deception. That is intellectual honesty.

[Dr. Shane]

So when I'm your age my opinion, which is based on the experiences of many people I have interacted with (without the intention to convert them), will be valid?

I don't know what field you are going into. If you are going into the mental health field, you probably won't have to wait until you are my age before you figure out the value of spirituality. I think it was just last year that the APA revised their guidelines for psychologists counseling religious homosexuals. They use to believe that the religious gays would be happier if they would leave their religion. Now they are advising religious gays to embrace abstinence and use the struggle to become closer to God. (Don't misunderstand - they are not advising all gays to do this. Only gays that feel at odds with their religion)

[Igakusei]

Pure Biblical doctrine is all about love and brings hope, peace and love like none other.

No, it's about how you're a weak and powerless creature who is helpless to do anything except be horrible and damaging to yourself and those around you...

Except that you can use THE POWER OF JEEEZUS to be normal again!

So yeah, that doesn't sit well with some people. And it's not true, either.

[SivartM]

I don't know what field you are going into. If you are going into the mental health field, you probably won't have to wait until you are my age before you figure out the value of spirituality. I think it was just last year that the APA revised their guidelines for psychologists counseling religious homosexuals. They use to believe that the religious gays would be happier if they would leave their religion. Now they are advising religious gays to embrace abstinence and use the struggle to become closer to God. (Don't misunderstand - they are not advising all gays to do this. Only gays that feel at odds with their religion)

I'm not going into the mental health field, but I do know a decent amount about mental health from personal interest. I hadn't heard about the APA guidelines change; I'll have to look at that. I don't think that that is an admission on their part that you have to be religious to be happy, though. It is extremely difficult for someone to simply give up their firmly held religious beliefs, so that issue is probably closer to their reasoning.

[fccool]

Quote:

I honestly haven't read the internals of all the studies I have seen. I do know that in some they just ask people to rate their level of happiness on a scale of 1 to 10.

That's why it can be confusing and irrelevant.

Some people may understand happiness as "feeling right now", as in angry, sad, happy, hungry, mad... Some people will take a more philosophical approach, and look at it from standpoint of appreciation of what one has.

It's very difficult to have a conclusive study on such term without selecting a sample that agrees on their definition of the term.

It would make more sense to have a study about people's perspective on happiness, rather than rating their happiness from 1-10 without actually defining what they consider happiness to be.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

In the one study done on cultures it came out that a naturally occurring atheistic culture called the Piraha were the happiest culture on the planet because they spent 70 percent of their day laughing or smiling.

Quote:

The Pirahã... do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people. Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach.

I find most all forms of spirituality fascinating.

Actually the Pirahã don't have a word for spirit. The word spirit is used because Everett didn't know exactly what the word used by the Pirahã meant. He clearly states that the use of the word spirit is a cultural distortion for convenience.

The only cardinal rule the Pirahã have is don't tell anyone else what to do.

That may have more to do with their happiness than anything.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

So when I'm your age my opinion, which is based on the experiences of many people I have interacted with (without the intention to convert them), will be valid?

I don't know what field you are going into. If you are going into the mental health field, you probably won't have to wait until you are my age before you figure out the value of spirituality. I think it was just last year that the APA revised their guidelines for psychologists counseling religious homosexuals. They use to believe that the religious gays would be happier if they would leave their religion. Now they are advising religious gays to embrace abstinence and use the struggle to become closer to God. (Don't misunderstand - they are not advising all gays to do this. Only gays that feel at odds with their religion)

This is because the councilor shouldn't impose decisions on them. The goal is for the person themselves to have their own internal guides instead of someone telling them what to do. Once people establish a link to reality they generally are able to abandon all the immaturity conditioned into them by fundamentalistic religions on their own.

The other problem is if your only source of meaning has been your religious belief most people need some type of method for determining meaning so they don't move in despair. Most people have some type of mental protection that prevents this except in the face of authority they have trust in.

[Dr. Shane]

Maybe you just dismiss most religions because they seem silly to you...

I thought you were familiar with my story. (well this is a bit long but the condensed version) I grew up in a back-slidden, abusive Adventist home. All of us kids were abused physically and sexually. Of my mother's seven children, two of us are still Adventists although my younger brother (the other Adventist) left the home when he was 12 and went to live with his dad (he has a different dad than I).

When I was in third grade my parents got back together briefly. I remember my dad asking me what day it was and when I answered that it was Saturday he slapped my face so hard that I fell to the floor. I was 8 years old. Can you imagine slapping an 8 year old so hard that he falls to the floor? I got up and he asked me again. This time, through tears, I answered that it was Saturday. Again he slapped me so hard I fell to the floor. Then when I got up he asked me again. This time I answered that it was the Sabbath. He told that was right and I better not ever call it Saturday again.

The Adventist church loved my family very much and showed it a lot but I never realized it until I was a grown adult and wrote my autobiography. As a child I felt trapped in a bad home and a bad church. I started drinking and using drugs when I was 14. I was tossed into an adolescent psychiatric ward at age 15. My drug addiction had progressed so far, so rapidly that no one knew what to do with me. I was sleeping under bridges, eating out of dumpsters and stealing to get by. I learned a lot in that psychiatric ward. One big thing I learned was how bad of a family I was in. My doctor told me I was alcoholic and recommended a 12-Step program of recovery. I did drink after leaving the ward but took my last drink when I was 16 years old. While I was sober and clean, I did not return to the Adventist church. Why would I?

When I was 21 (5 years sober) I started a spiritual quest. The last place I expected to go was the Adventist church. In fact, I had serious doubts about Christianity. I lived in Minnesota and the Native American tribes had their pow-wows and sweat lodges so that seemed like a good place to start. I registered for a world religions class at my state university where they taught all the world religions - including spiritism (where people talk to the dead). For me, everything was on the table.

I couldn't buy any of it hook, line and sinker. And that is what I wanted. I wanted to find a religion that I could buy into. But I had to be honest with myself. The 12-Step group gave out these medallions to mark the years of sobriety and on the back of them it read "To Thine Own Self Be True". I could certainly accept the lifestyle of a Budhist or Hindu and make that mine own but couldn't be sold completely on it. Christianity was the last religion I checked out - and I didn't go to the Adventist church. I went to Campus Crusade for Christ.

I finally came to the conclusion that there is no "sure thing". No matter what the religion, I would have some doubts. So I changed my criteria from wanting to be completely certain to having the least amount and smallest doubts. A study of Christian apologetics convinced me that Christianity is the most probable religion. If God exists and has an active religion on Earth, it is most probably Christianity. So then I started going from denomination to denomination studying doctrine. I am sure my college studies suffered during this time but I was on a quest. I finally called the local Adventist pastor (I did not go to church). He came to my house thinking he was going to study the Bible with me. I fired questions at him one after another. I started calling him at his home with more questions. I never stumped him - unlike all the other pastors of other denominations I had studied with. I started visiting the local church and a widower invited me to go up to camp-meeting with him. I can't tell you who was preaching but it was at that camp-meeting I decided to become an Adventist. I decided. Not my mom. Not my dad. I decided I was going to do this thing.

I have never quit studying other religions and they still do interest me. I have many, many friends in the 12-Step program that belong to other religions and we discuss beliefs openly without feeling the need to get defensive. I *share* my beliefs. That is a key word - share. That means others can take my experience and use it if they want, or they can put it aside if they have no use for it. I never push my beliefs on others but I am never timid about sharing the hope I have because of Christ and Sola Scriptura doctrine.

[Dr. Shane]

It is extremely difficult for someone to simply give up their firmly held religious beliefs, so that issue is probably closer to their reasoning.

But that is also tied to happiness.

[SivartM]

Sorry you had to type all of that out! You have told me your story before but I guess I didn't make my statement clear enough. As usual, it is good to hear your story.

I couldn't buy any of it hook, line and sinker. And that is what I wanted. I wanted to find a religion that I could buy into.

This is all that I meant; I shouldn't have used the word "silly". But if you were raised in Adventism that seems like an obvious bias whether or not it was a healthy upbringing. Regardless, different people have different relationships with religion; nobody can say how other people's minds work or that they aren't as sincere in their religious journeys as anyone else.

[Dr. Shane]

if you were raised in Adventism that seems like an obvious bias whether or not it was a healthy upbringing.

It is an obvious bias although I tend to think that it is a bias against, rather than in favor, of the religion. It would be interesting to see a study done on abused children raised in "religious" homes and how many remain in their childhood religion. My mother sobered up when my younger brother was 5 and he went to live with his dad when he was 12. All the rest of my siblings are either not attending any religion or in other denominations. Two of my sisters have become Catholics - both attended Adventist schools. One of my sisters is a member of an evangelical mega church that has something like 3,000 members. I have met many Catholics, Baptists and Lutherans in the 12-Step program that will never step a foot into their childhood churches.

So I am not dismissing the idea that somewhere in my sub-conscious I had a bias toward the Adventist faith however from what I have observed, that type of bias normally causes a person to stay away from their childhood religion rather than return to it.

[cardw]

I finally came to the conclusion that there is no "sure thing". No matter what the religion, I would have some doubts. So I changed my criteria from wanting to be completely certain to having the least amount and smallest doubts. A study of Christian apologetics convinced me that Christianity is the most probable religion. If God exists and has an active religion on Earth, it is most probably Christianity.