God

[teresaq]

What is your picture of God, your biblical, or lack of, understanding of God?

How do you view Him?

What was your original view? Has it changed over the years?

Are you afraid to think about it too much?

Can we limit God by exploring? Or increase our admiration in exploring?

Can we learn from each other while maintaining our own view?

[Parade Orange]

when i was little i heard about GOD

i knew nothing but one thing about HIM

HE EXISTED!

and in my childish mind of 6 years of age

i thought of him in relation to scooder pies!

i dont remember why i thought of himn like that

maybe a scooder pie cartoon ad?

he had a white flowing beard?

its my first image of GOD

[teresaq]

I'm not sure where I got my first idea of God having been 'raised' SDA, but I thought, as you said on the other thread, that we would spend eternity with a harp on a cloud. Boring!

God. I couldn't understand why on earth anyone would want to go to heaven since God was just waiting to catch you doing something wrong. Thanks to God and the Christians amongst us I lost that view over time but still had no real interest in going to heaven until -

I was in a "hornet's nest" about 2004 in quiet beautiful country and realized -

we are not going to be in heaven like we are here. We give it up down here or kiss that place off. OH, OK I can deal with that.

Now to give it up so I don't make heaven ____ for others up there.

[Parade Orange]

i didnt have a sabbath school feltboard to go by

my Grant Aunt MARIE died when i was 6

in a family where children were abused and not liked at all my Great Aunt loved me

when she came over she gave us laughs ,hugs, and sweets

i only have like 3 or 4 memories of her and they are all good!

i felt loved for a brief time in my childhood by her

no where else!

my mom told me of her passing by making it happy news

saying she went to heaven and now looking down on us

i asked her how do we get to heaven and she told me i had to be good

i wanted to be good so bad

it was because my GREAT AUNT died that my mom spoke of GOD things for that brief moment in time

thats when she told me in heaven we will play harps and float on clouds

that didnt sound fun but it was better than hell

i remember being a bad boy and cringing that my GREAT AUNT saw it!

i thought she didnt love me anymore when she found out i wasnt as wonderful as i was when she was alive

hmm i se a patern here

[Tom Wetmore]

Great topic exploring the picture in our imagination of God! I think quite illuminating to explore this, or any topic for that matter, learning from each other.

And PO, love the scooder pie God of the 6 year old you!

I'll have to really think to go back to my earliest visual concept of God. Oddly as someone who is predominantly a visual learner, I can't pinpoint just a single early original view of God. As a kid on the farm we didn't have much, but we had the Bible Story books which my Mom read to us for worship. It was all good, positive stuff.

[CoAspen]

teresaq,

Get the book TW recommended, Questioning Everything! It starts off with your question.

My first impressions...very fuzzy...throne, long white hair, bright light...etc.

A Star Trek episode started me wondering just what God is like.

I still don't know, but my picture/imagination has changed from my earlier days.

I'm not sure we can put into words what the reality of God is, because we have experienced so little in the time span of the world. From all the descriptions and attributes ascribed to God, it shows humans have been trying to describe Him in the language of the day that is understood by the most people and it changes.

[Parade Orange]

i agree and appreciate your memories also

[Parade Orange]

TOM WETMORE! u just jogged another memory

out of the blue

these scooderpies came with a promotional cheap transparet kid gloves [puppet]

a cheaper version of medical latex gloves

and on these gloves were a picture of an old man with a goofy cartoon smile and a long white beard

i think it was at the same time my mom talked of GOD so maybe it was me trying to figure out who GOD was

and having a long white flowing beard connect with my image

i wanted something tangable

something i can point to and say THIS IS GOD

hmmm

[teresaq]

Doing some therapy there, are you PO?

--------

I guess I really don't understand how "knowing" that the Father has a form, that we are created physically in His image would limit God. Perhaps because I knew this from such a young age, perhaps not, I don't see Him limited at all. I still see Him as powerful, 'course not so much like a Zeus anymore.

(Hmmm, wonder how many of us are worshiping Zeus attributes thinking we are worshiping God?)

I don't understand how seeing God as filling all space would make Him anything....I would want to worship, I guess. A gas-like substance that pervades everything is, what? How would that make the Father more of anything than if He had a body and had to move from one spot to another in a similar manner as we, a vaguely similar manner.

I have tried to post several times today and each time it sounded like I would be insulting so I stopped.

Sooooo, if I have insulted, I am sorry. :(

[Parade Orange]

no no

pour it it out!

i want to hear your thoughts

i know miscommunication is very easy here

but i promise to take it in the spirit u give it

what are your thoughts

[Tom Wetmore]

Whatever God is, I think that He understands we cannot easily relate to Him in his most natural state of being. It is therefore necessary to use human terms and human attributes with which we are comfortable and familiar to have any understanding and appreciation God and any other heavenly being are ultimately what in science fiction or fantasy literature are described as shape-shifters. (One source indicates that shape-shifting is the literal meaning of transfiguration as the disciples witnessed of Jesus with Moses and Elijah.) This ability is sometimes referred to as morphing.

So, I think we very easily visualize God in whatever way we can best understand and relate to Him. And God is cool with that.

[Gail]

I had absolutely no concept of God until I was invited to church as a young child.

Most of what I've gained is from Scripture- that God acts this way, He knows our hearts (our very US- Psalm 139), He has a plan to save us from sin and sorrow, etc.

When I learned to "heart read" nature, the picture got even bigger. Then when I read about Jesus, it got even bigger.

Over the years I learned how our view of our parents shapes our viewpoint of God. I learned to join that up with the parent-like attributes that God has, both paternal and maternal.

I can see God's workings in science (which is nature). I know that we can study all our lives about one tiny aspect of an organism or mineral or anything on this earth and never reach the end, only think of new questions.

Because I love to learn, He intrigues me.

To me, God is way too big to comprehend. But that is what I like about Him. Because He is so far above what we are, He is the likeliest One to fulfill His word and grant us what He promises.

[teresaq]

First I definitely agree that whatever we do learn about God, His nature or substance would only be a drop in the bucket. Guess that applies to His character also.

What I have been wondering about...

I believe it is Bravus whose thoughts have provoked questions I already had to come to the surface again. If I am not portraying your thought accurately please do not hesitate to correct me, B.

If God is some kind of gas, air, ethereal substance that permeates all space, then it seems natural to go into pantheism/panentheism.

The question that has been coming to me is, why is that a problem?

Our parents can tell us not to touch a hot stove til they are blue in the face and that will have no meaning. We may not touch that stove because we know something could happen that we will not like...but when we know that it will really, really hurt then we will do all in our power to avoid that, unless we are distracted at the moment.

I think it is AlienSanctuary who says God is pure energy. AS's ideas can be way out there but when time has had time for an idea to work on my mind, some of those ideas seem quite plausible. I can see that God might be pure energy in a humanoid form. Not that God is in our form, but that we are in God's form but not of His substance. (I don't mean to be discussing you in front of you while you are in the room AS. )

[Christopher]

Hmmm great questions.

My brightest memories as a kid is being in a sunday school and singing this little light of mine I'm going to let it shine and just a real calm trust in Jesus. didn't really think about it back then.

even though at first went through many differing churchs with the hell concept and all that junk, God didn't scare me,just trusted in Jesus the best i can tell. Thought it was weird when i first heard the concept that people were afraid of the Father couldn't comprehend that,intellectually can understand it these days though.

God is so Great and a lot of God is not understandable to us especially coming from a sinful beginning at least. So the question for me isn't that God is Not I or we can't understand God but What can we understand? What has God tried to teach us about Themselves.

Have learned that God,all of them are Love and that life is based in other-centeredness aka Love,all the time everyday and always will be.

What can we imagine about God? I know that whatever good we can think about God it will be a zillion times better than that when we finally meet.

Is God a physical person? to me there is no doubt on that one.

My question (though fairly settled on the answer) is whether God or Jesus is or is going to be a true human family and can that be seen aka proved from Scripture.

always trying to remember to ask myself also is why I'm asking a certain question especially when it is about God stuff

[Parade Orange]

CHRISTOPHER

i love your post!

[phkrause]

I've been thinking about this for a few days, ever since the thread was posted. Don't really recall what God meant. Especially at a young age. Not even sure when we first got introduced to God. But as I've grown older and really started reading the Bible and read about Jesus saying we needed to have faith as a little child. You know how as a little child you are so trusting in everyone, especially your parents, this I believe is where we first start getting our concept of God. If are parents misuse there authority we get a negative picture of God, or vice-a-versa. But after a certain age we need to stop blaming others for our decisions of who God is, because we can see a very clear picture of God from the Bible and if we need more answers, EGW fills in the gaps.

[Bravus]

I have a few blog posts on the topic in which I've tried to work out my thoughts. The rules here preclude just linking those, and it's probably worthwhile for my thinking to have another go at writing about it here.

Gotta shave off my weekend's growth of beard and head in to the office now, but will aim to write something in the next day or so.

[Bravus]

Let me do this as two separate posts, addressing different but related issues.

Post 1 - Biblical

Part of the original question was about the Biblical sources of our views, and this is something that has also been discussed recently in a thread on the nature of God in Town Hall.

My own take on this is that everything on earth partakes of both Eden and the Fall. (Leave aside for the moment whether those are understood literally or as metaphors.)

Everything both reveals and conceals the character of God. Human love can be Godly but also very flawed. Nature can be beautiful but savage, and so on.

The controversial part is that I apply this to the Bible too.

It actually *shouldn't* be controversial. Ask Christians about slavery and they'll say it was not God's ideal but God met humans where they were. OK, so then the Bible includes both Eden and the Fall. Some of it reveals God's true character, other parts reveal flawed human cultures and practices.

What ends up happening is that people use their own prejudices and existing beliefs to decide which bits are which.

The difference is, I *know* I'm doing that, and try to do it thoughtfully, reflectively and in the knowledge that I may well be wrong.

There has been strong evidence recently in the Town Hall discussion that some people's own interpretive processes are entirely invisible to them, and therefore unavailable to them for reflection and challenge.

I don't write this to attack anyone, but to explain that in fact my view of the nature of God very much arises from the Bible... but recognises the mixed nature of the Bible. God's homophobia and apparent comfort with slavery are artefacts of humanity, not of God. So, in my view, are metaphors about God's physical body and physical location.

My view of God is also based in observations of nature and the world around us: while recognising that it too has a mixed nature.

[Bravus]

I take the attributes of God seriously: immortal, eternal, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent.

I combine that with an understanding of General Relativity, which I've gone into elsewhere and don't want to get into here, but the upshot is that God is not material in the sense of being made up of protons, neutrons and electrons, having mass and so on. God is immaterial, but that means *more*, not less, real than the material world.

In a very real sense, the universe is in God, rather than God being in the universe.

I have been forced to the position that God does not intervene in the world. The evidence is just stacked far too high that, for all our human ability to find patterns in things, there is just no support for the idea of God interacting with the earth and its people. On every measure, chance and human processes account for all that is observed.

I was driven to that reluctantly, from a position of believing in answers to prayer and divine protection and so on, but my many investigations into the topic, including asking here for actual examples of miracles, has made the conclusion inescapable.

I'm not sure what else to say: such a God is profoundly unsatisfying for everyone I talk to, both Christians and atheists. All I can do is shrug... it's the only God I've got or can have, and the alternative is atheism, which I reject (that's maybe another thread).

[Bravus]

(and yeah, panentheism is probably the best description of that - and here I thought it was original to me!)

[teresaq]

That wasn't the perspective I came from pk. As a child I didn't dare trust my parents nor much of anyone else. I remember when my car door flew open and he grabbed my arm. That was a shocker to me. I thought for sure he would have preferred to let me fly out the car.

People had flubbed up my life so badly that I consciously told God to stay in His corner. I would make my own decisions and His only purpose in my life was to keep me from doing to others what had been done to me. It had been so painful I didn't want to perpetuate the....

It seems to me He respected that (I have left out many other relevant facts at the moment) til He didn't. Meaning there came a point I got the distinct impression He had decided it was time I learned to trust Him. It has been interesting and I am almost there.

My point tho, is for many children trusting God as one trusts their parents isn't a reality.

Oh, I have to so disagree with you about the bible and EGW giving a clear picture of God. Not so, not so. Damaged people read the bible according to what has been done to them by their parents and good 'christian' folk. If that experience sucks, forgive me for being crude, then, no, no, that is exactly how we will see God.

How did my picture change? It was a handful - literally I can count them on 1 hand - of Christians who seemed to be a different species altogether. I had never met anyone like them before, nor after.

Also from statements here and there by others, and later by the SoP that penetrated my dull mind. But even still too many times statements that should move me are just letters on the page.

I still feel pain when seeing statements like your last one. It is just one more boulder added to the other ones I can not carry, that crush me, that too many times have made me feel like giving up.

I wonder how many have given up.

[Christopher]

really appreciate Teresa and bravus comments also pks and orange

I agree with pk to me it is easy to see Gods Love and way of doing things in nature the scriptures and especially egw. has it always been that way? Yes and no.

I grew up really fearing male authority figures especially my dad and any step-fathers,absolute terror at times.That may have and maybe still does affect how i see our Heavenly Father but I trust Jesus and who i know Him to be.

I could have let fear and that perspective run how i look at and for God but for the most part(at least these days) i don't (i Hope and pray) but i decided (not sure when lol) that i would look from a perspective of how god would look or think of things,not real sure how I'm doing that except by the Grace of God through Holy Spirit.

Now this is a very strong statement but I refuse to look at God as any other thing Than Love and Loving and trustworthy,yep my mind is very made up on that. Even (for the sake of Argument) that God isn't that way then so what, I like that Way and want to be that way period. Now i am not even close to being that way as far as i can tell but from what i can tell through the many sources God in All there fullness IS.

Now obviously not everyone is at that point in their lives,sorry to hear that. I'm a lousy thinker even lousier at studying to many drugs and just being a Pro at Procrastination not sure lazy fits but wouldn't deny it to hard either make all sorts of decisions everyday that i know are just wrong for me especially as I want to lead or point to The Most Loving Person for anyone to know, I suck as a representative of Jesus (or so i think) but to me since God got to me despite my life and teresa i have given up so many times it ain't funny,then God can get Their point across to anyone,what a person does with it is up to them to decide. So to me, I like to ask why a person decides the way they do? Don't they want Love? Even if they can't find it anywhere else,do they want to be loving regardless of anyone else? and if so I Highly recommend thinking and acting upon the belief that Jesus is the best example regardless of how anyone else acts or doesn't.

Ok hope that helps someone

[teresaq]

Its kind of funny, maybe, but there was a time when I thought I was nicer than God. That I cared more about people. Poor God. He got such a bad rap from His people.

Now I don't. Now I see that whatever caring for others I do have comes from Him.

Your post goes to show how we can't lump people all together. We are not clones of anyone nor robots. We are all so individualistic and have to come our own roads. We can't get there trying to travel someone else's road.

[teresaq]

Thanks B. That was pretty much the idea I had of your beliefs. I don't understand them - cause I'm me and not you - but I respect that that is how you see it.

Not that very long ago I wouldn't have. I guess some will see that as ongoing proof that I have been going to the devil for some time.

I tend to see it as coming closer to God and seeing it more like They do. They know each one of our circumstances and unique individuality, what makes us us, why we come to the conclusions we do, etc.

And for all that, how do I know you won't be the one in heaven while I don't make it? The same could be said for certain other individuals. They also may end up there while I don't. LOL

[Parade Orange]

i really appreciate your honesty TERESAQ

BTW my brother and i fell out of the car on the ramp to the highway and parents went back for us and we didnt get hurt

we cried and hoping for some TLC in that and got none

its taking a lifetime to see GOD differently

when i was a lil boy i worshipped my mother