The mystery of iniquity

[Robert]

How can a sinless being, like Eve or Adam, be tempted by the love of self (iniquity)?

Let me say from the start that the Bible calls the subject of "iniquity" a mystery! Ellen White comments:

Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love (agape) which is the foundation of the divine government. [GC 493]

[Robert]

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

[Kevin H]

They mystery of iniquite is that Lucifer raised some very good questions about God. He he studied them he would have come to a deeper understanding of who God is and would have loved God more and helped the rest of the universe in learning about these issues. However instead of looking for answers, Lucifer refused to look at the issue but just began playing with evil and getting others to just start playing with it as well. A big part of the thousand years is this is where Satan and the demons finally learn about evil and how ugly it is. I would not be surprised if at the end they say "I wish I could get another chance" so then they have the lost come back to life and the New Jerusalem come down where they are welcome to come in, but they find that they have developed habits and a character of being in rebellion and being temptors as they temp the wicked to get the New Jersualem by force, and as they see the Father and Christ the situation of wanting to come and repent but refusing to. and this conflect quite litterally destroys them.

[Robert]

... just began playing with evil

There was no such thing as evil (iniquity), so how could Lucifer play with something that wasn't there? Agape love filled his being. He was created in God's image and His likeness. Then something unnatural happened:

Ez 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone ....They were given to you on the day you were created. 14 I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire. 15 "You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day iniquity was found in you."

Pic of Lucifer

[ClubV12]

Thanks Robert, finally a reasonable representation (picture) of the evil doer! You know he came to Jesus in the wilderness to tempt Him, not as some disfigured awful looking villian. He came portraying himself as an angel of light. So convincing was the illusion that Jesus Himself was not sure WHO this being was UNTIL he spoke: "IF" thou be the Son of God...." It was only then that Jesus knew who he was dealing with.

Thus the counsel, do not trust your eyes, trust the principles and the words of the bible to discern error. Fabulous miracles will be wrought, how will we know what is of God and what isn't? Certainly not be SEEING them!!! Only by comparing them to the word will we know.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Until you can accept that Adam was tempted in the garden of Eden, without a sinful nature, then you will ever understand that Christ could have the same experience.

How can a sinless being, indwelt with agape (in the image and likeness of God) be tempted by the love of self (iniquity)? Yes? I'm waiting!

Despite your denial of this possibility Robert...

...It happened in the garden of Eden to Adam and Eve.

[Robert]

How were Adam & Eve tempted? There was no iniquity, no bent to self in their humanity. They loved with no thoughts of self. Here's how Ellen White described agape:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

[ClubV12]

Adam, was all about "self" in that one moment of temptation. He knew that Eve must die and in his selfishness he could not bare to give her up. He siezed the fruit and quickly ate. Thinking only of himself, his needs, ignoring everything else around him while fully recognizing the penalty. Eve was deceived, but Adam made a choice with full knowledge of what he was about to do, and the consequences that would follow.

How could he do that? He did not trust God, he looked first to others (Eve) and then to himself for his standard of acceptable behaviour. As did Satan in heaven, wounded as he was by not being allowed to counsel with the God Head in the creation of this planet. He felt slighted, abused, taken advantage of. He DESERVED to be in that counsel was his conclusion of the matter.

And yet, even after this mystery of sin began to take hold he STILL thrilled along with the heavenly host singing praises to and worshiping the creator. He STILL felt the love of God, he understood the beauty of the laws of righteousness and loved them. Slowly, the evil he dwelt on, overcame his love for God. He rejected the counsel of the heavenly beings pleading with him to turn away from these thoughts. There was STILL time to repent, to confess, to find favor with God, he was not immediately lost, it would come about in due time.

[Robert]

Adam, was all about "self" in that one moment of temptation.

[ClubV12]

"How could Adam be tempted to sin?"

Indeed, how could Satan?

Thus, the mystery of sin, who can understand it?

[miz3]

They mystery of iniquite is that Lucifer raised some very good questions about God. He he studied them he would have come to a deeper understanding of who God is and would have loved God more and helped the rest of the universe in learning about these issues. However instead of looking for answers, Lucifer refused to look at the issue but just began playing with evil and getting others to just start playing with it as well. A big part of the thousand years is this is where Satan and the demons finally learn about evil and how ugly it is. I would not be surprised if at the end they say "I wish I could get another chance" so then they have the lost come back to life and the New Jerusalem come down where they are welcome to come in, but they find that they have developed habits and a character of being in rebellion and being temptors as they temp the wicked to get the New Jersualem by force, and as they see the Father and Christ the situation of wanting to come and repent but refusing to. and this conflect quite litterally destroys them.

This is not Biblical. Just your fantasy.

[skyblue888]

I have to agree with miz here.

Kevin, Lucifer and the angels who followed him in his rebellion have had all the chances they could ever get to repent and to be re-instated even before this world was created but pride on the part of Lucifer had stopped him from repenting and he also deceived the fallen angels by telling them that God would never take them back. They believed him.

"A big part of the thousand years is this is where Satan and the demons finally learn about evil and how ugly it is. I would not be surprised if at the end they say "I wish I could get another chance" so then they have the lost come back to life and the New Jerusalem come down where they are welcome to come in..."

To suggest that Satan and his evil angels will finally learn how ugly evil is during the thousand years is ludicrous, to say the very least of it. They are the incarnation of evil. They know nothing but evil. They know that everything they do is evil and they have mastered the art of being evil. Right now they are too busy to think of the consequences of their evil actions but during the thousand years they will have plenty of time to think about what they did and what awaits them but during that time satan and his evil angels will not stop being evil as they will be planning their next evil move once the thousand years are over.

How could we even begin to think that these evil beings would say at that time, "I wish we could get another chance" when heaven would be a place or torture for them! Then you say, "so then they have the lost come back to life and the New Jerusalem come down where they are welcome to come in."

Are you suggesting that it is them that will bring the dead to life?? And I don't know where you got this idea that they will be welcome in the New Jerusalem!!! They will not be welcome there. They have disqualified themselves milleniums ago!!! They will be the execration of the earth at that time and the unsaved of all ages will turn upon them with the fury of demons and God will not interfere.

sky

[Kevin H]

God knows evil well enough to leave it alone. The saved of unfallen angels and unfallen worlds and redeamed humans are seeing how the great controversy plays out and for the unfallen, by the time of the cross they understood evil well enough to forever leave it alone. We are still in the process. For the lost they are at the end to finally understand and they will finally agree with God that God's way is right and that evil is wrong, however instead of alowing God to heal them, they choose to not live their sinful lives anymore by choosing death. This is the very nature of the Great Controversy.

[skyblue888]

Kevin, last sentence of your last post: This is true for human beings but not for evil angels.

Kevin, Can I suggest you re-write your first sentence.

Thanks.

sky :)

[Kevin H]

Sorry sky, how would you re-write it?

[miz3]

God knows evil well enough to leave it alone. The saved of unfallen angels and unfallen worlds and redeamed humans are seeing how the great controversy plays out and for the unfallen, by the time of the cross they understood evil well enough to forever leave it alone. We are still in the process. For the lost they are at the end to finally understand and they will finally agree with God that God's way is right and that evil is wrong, however instead of alowing God to heal them, they choose to not live their sinful lives anymore by choosing death. This is the very nature of the Great Controversy.

Biblical proof please.

[skyblue888]

Sorry sky, how would you re-write it?

Kevin

__________

Okay.

Your quote: God knows evil well enough to leave it alone. The saved of unfallen angels and unfallen worlds and redeamed humans are seeing how the great controversy plays out and for the unfallen, by the time of the cross they understood evil well enough to forever leave it alone.

_________

Firstly God does not have to know evil "enough" to leave it alone. That would imply that He is imperfect, as though he had to study evil until He becomes convinced enough that it should be left alone. God does not need to study something. He knows everything.

Secondly the unfallen did not have to wait until the cross to leave evil alone. They had done so long before that time. They simply waited to see how the plan of redemption would unfold. And even at the cross they still did not understand all that was involved in the great controversy: "The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued." D.A.761.

Back to you.

sky :)

[ClubV12]

It's hard to imagine the plan of salvation and the great sacrafice it required will be an objective of study through out eternity. From that I would say we have only the most basic understanding at this time, barely even the tip of the ice berg.

[skyblue888]

More has been revealed since the cross especially in the writings of Ellen White expanding on the Scriptures. But it is true that the theme of redemption the redeemed will study throughout eternity.

sky

[Aliensanctuary]

Evil first began, I suspect, as selfishness.

Quote:

For the love of self is the root of all evil.

Created by the Evil One himself, Satan, Evil is the dark energy of chaos. It’s a highly contagious, fatal virus that brings ruin upon on everyone it infects, destroying goodness and beauty and peace. The Virus of Evil always brings selfishness, hatred, cruelty, conflict, destruction, disease, chaos, and death.

Evil is selfishness, and selfishness is Evil. It's a total disregard for the feelings or rights or property or life of another. To everyone embracing it, it causes permanent damage, leaving them even less able to resist its power over them.

The only cure for the Virus of Evil was provided by an act of selfless sacrifice by the Good Shepherd. He became one of us when he entered this pigpen of a world, then lost his life while trying to teach those living in this gloomy prison the truth about the Kingdom of God.

Only by Love can Evil be overcome, the Good Shepherd taught, because self-sacrificing Love is more powerful than Evil. That's why he came here, to teach us how to love. If we can be kind to the unlovable, even those who hurt us or kill us, then the Spirit of God can enable us to overcome the selfish, evil desires lurking within ourselves. In the end, Love will triumph over Evil.