Did Adam and Eve have children before their fall?

[flameon88]

I would like to know if they is any more concrete Biblical proof or from the Spirit of Prophecy on this subject. For "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.’(Gen. 3:16 NIV)", the increase in pains indicate a lesser pain in childbearing before.

Moreover when Cain sins, he says to God,

Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and WHOEVER finds me will kill me. (Gen. 4:14 NIV)

and Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command.”

To summarize my thoughts, this blog sums it up pretty well, http://wcfoundation.org/tftw_blog/2011/01/03/did-adam-and-eve-have-children-before-cain/

I do not necessarily subscribe to this view, but I find Gen 3:16 would be hard to explain when other people ask. Please do help me. Thanks.

[Gustave]

No.

[ClubV12]

OK, I'll bite, just to be onery, yes!

....interesting question.

[flameon88]

any reason why? I used to believe that there should be no children before the fall as well, yet the increase in pain is a glaring point that needs to be explained, be it from the Bible or Spirit of Prophecy.

Thanks :)

[John317]

It seems to me that if the man and the woman had had children in the Garden, the text would say something about it.

When God told the woman that He would "greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children," I believe He was simply saying that giving birth to children would be painful instead of pleasant like it would have been if she hadn't sinned.

I don't see any indication here in the language that Eve had already given birth. The entire third chapter of Genesis gives the clear impression that Adam and Eve were the only humans in the Garden.

I reviewed what Ellen White said about this topic in Patriarchs and Prophets, and I don't see any suggestion that Adam and Eve had any children before being exiled from the Garden.

[John317]

...Moreover when Cain sins, he says to God,

Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and WHOEVER finds me will kill me. (Gen. 4:14 NIV)

and Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command.”

Genesis 4: 4 is referring to other children born to Adam and Eve. Eve obviously gave birth to female children as well as to her sons.

Romans 5: 14 is simply saying that people died even though they didn't violate a command the way Adam had. Their death is proof that death was inherited from Adam and was not due to a personal violation of a commandment.

[flameon88]

yes, i understand from that point of view too, we were discussing this in a class and this was brought up, would Adam and Eve have children if they had not sinned? We were talking about how would the world be like if Adam and Eve had not sinned, and one main point is whether they would have children or not? If they have children, would it mean in heaven people would have children as well? As Eden would be a kind of type of heaven? Not sure if my point got through.

Well, these questions are not that important, but would be good to have it sorted out. Thanks :)

[BobRyan]

I would like to know if they is any more concrete Biblical proof or from the Spirit of Prophecy on this subject. For "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.’(Gen. 3:16 NIV)", the increase in pains indicate a lesser pain in childbearing before.

It is clear that there were no children born to Adam and Eve before the fall of Adam because they too would have had to eat of the forbidden fruit to be "fallen".

Cain is Eve's first child and her response is to hope that this is the promised Savior of mankind.

To extrapolate "increase pain in childbirth" means that childbirth had to happen first in the prior-state takes the idea farther than is necessary. The statement simply says that the biological process was being changed. It could have been said about sinless 9 year olds and would still be accurate and valid. The statement does not require that Eve must first have had children to have been created with a biological design that allowed for painless childbirth.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Someone in my local study class suggested that "in God's image" meant that humans had a new ability no other created beings ever had. The ability to procreate!

IF they had NOT sinned and assuming they COULD procreate while in a perfect state, when were they going to get around to it? Would their children have had access to the "apple tree" when they were born? Or, at some point, would the tree have been removed and future children would have never had access?

Is this planet the end of any new created beings forever? If knew beings are created AFTER the horrible experiment, of sin, they will only have second hand knowledge of it. Whereas all created beings to date have seen it, experienced it personally, had an opportunity to choose.

[BobRyan]

I suppose it is possible that God has not created any other new worlds since this one.

But I think it is utterly wrong to imagine that rabbits and amoeba are all in the image of God - unique from other worlds - just because they can "reproduce".

Whoever came up with that idea was not really thinking it through.

It is more correct to say that ANGELS are "unique" from all other worlds - including this one... in that they are all directly created by God "the sons of God" in a proper sense - and cannot reproduce.

In fact it is obvious from all that we know that the "MANY" kinds and species are able to reproduce - and the "UNIQUE" (Angels) are not.

Also it is obviously true that the family model is the one that God uses on planets - and it is the way that planets are populated.

I cringe to hear one or two of our more well known leaders get out there and go down such a road. It only hurts their ministry to make such mistakes.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

The garden was a "special place" that God had customized for Adam and Eve...

...In it were only those things God placed there.

...This was a "state" as much as it was a literal place.

...I.E. they were IN God's Rest.

Genesis 2,8

And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed.And the Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.And a river went out the place of pleasure to water paradise, which from thence is divided into four heads

Genesis 3,23

And the Lord God sent him OUT of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Paradise still existed - Adam and Eve were removed from the State of God's Grace...

...Because Adam was no longer living in the State of God's Grace.

...The ground would bring forth those things Adam didn't have to previously contend with.

Outside the garden animals were already eating each other and thorns were already growing...

...Outside the garden there were obviously "other hominides" who were ignorant of God.

...Consider them early cave dwellers,apish, etc.

What makes us human is our soul and ability to know there is something greater than ourselves out there....

...Adam and Eve were the first true humans.

The text states that Cain went out and built a "city"...

...One does not "build a city" by themself for themself.

[BobRyan]

The garden was a "special place" that God had customized for Adam and Eve...

...In it were only those things God placed there.

...This was a "state" as much as it was a literal place.

...I.E. they were IN God's Rest.

...

Paradise still existed - Adam and Eve were removed from the State of God's Grace...

...Because Adam was no longer living in the State of God's Grace.

...The ground would bring forth those things Adam didn't have to previously contend with.

Outside the garden animals were already eating each other and thorns were already growing...

...Outside the garden there were obviously "other hominids" who were ignorant of God.

...Consider them early cave dwellers,apish, etc.

Impressive storytelling if you are really that deep into just making stuff up.

But the actual Bible says that God created "the WORLD" not just "the Garden" and God said that it is plants and animals all over the EARTH that are the focus of the 7 day creation account "not just the garden".

And in that "world wide" account that we see in Gen 1 - the animals eat plants - not each other.

Nothing "evolved" during those 7 days.

And it was not the "garden" that brings forth weeks and thorns after the fall - but is the place OUTSIDE the garden that will from now on - bring forth weeds and thorns... meaning that it did not do that before sin.

Romans 8 also confirms the same point - disease and decay - came to "creation" after the fall of Adam and Eve.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The garden was a "special place" that God had customized for Adam and Eve...

...In it were only those things God placed there.

...This was a "state" as much as it was a literal place.

...I.E. they were IN God's Rest.

...

Paradise still existed - Adam and Eve were removed from the State of God's Grace...

...Because Adam was no longer living in the State of God's Grace.

...The ground would bring forth those things Adam didn't have to previously contend with.

Outside the garden animals were already eating each other and thorns were already growing...

...Outside the garden there were obviously "other hominids" who were ignorant of God.

...Consider them early cave dwellers,apish, etc.

Impressive storytelling if you are really that deep into just making stuff up.

But the actual Bible says that God created "the WORLD" not just "the Garden" and God said that it is plants and animals all over the EARTH that are the focus of the 7 day creation account "not just the garden".

And in that "world wide" account that we see in Gen 1 - the animals eat plants - not each other.

Nothing "evolved" during those 7 days.

And it was not the "garden" that brings forth weeks and thorns after the fall - but is the place OUTSIDE the garden that will from now on - bring forth weeds and thorns... meaning that it did not do that before sin.

Romans 8 also confirms the same point - disease and decay - came to "creation" after the fall of Adam and Eve.

in Christ,

Bob

Göbekli Tepe, unless you are going to suggest that was built around the time Giza was....

...Do you accept the Neolithic period as a historical fact Bob?

[ClubV12]

Bob says,

"Also it is obviously true that the family model is the one that God uses on planets - and it is the way that planets are populated."

Wow, thats an interesting concept. Do you mean to imply, am I reading this right, that other beings on other created worlds also have the ability to procreate and have done so?

I certainly didn't mean to imply, in my earlier statement, that "in the image of God" in any way included other than human beings. But I see your point in rejecting the concept BECAUSE it could/would include animals and even plant life!

...back to square one as to the meaning of "in Gods image".

[John317]

We were talking about how would the world be like if Adam and Eve had not sinned, and one main point is whether they would have children or not? If they have children, would it mean in heaven people would have children as well?

I think God's command in Gen. 1: 28 shows that it was His plan from the very beginning that Adam and Eve produce children. He commanded them to "fill full" the earth. My understanding is that humans would have stopped having babies as soon as the earth was full of people as God wanted it. I see no indication that humans will go on having babies during the one thousand years in heaven. Jesus' words indicate that the family won't be the same on the new earth as it is in the world today. In other words, men and women won't be married in the afterlife.

Gen 1:28-- And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.