Deceiving the elect

[ClubV12]

How to deceive the very elect, the very sincere. Those sighing and crying for the sins of the church. As well as the less sincere (the "nominal" Adventist), as the "very sincere" like to call them.

Step 1.

Get their eyes off Jesus.

Step 2 (see Step 1).

There are four primary ways to acomplish the distraction:

1. The pleasures of the world.

TV, games, wasted time, electronics, things you "gotta have" to be a "better christian".

2. The cares of this life.

Worry, doubt, bills, car, job, friends. Worrying about what friends or other people will think of you rates high on this list.

3. Looking to other people (this may actually be #1 on our list).

For the very sincere, "Godly" men and women among us, Looking to the faults in the local church, Conference, Union and GC are particulary effective. The less sincere, just look to others in the local church. Gossip, tale bearers, back biters, rumor mongering. The very sincere start thinking about how they should pay their tithe, "justifying" themselves because they don't like how the GC is using it. They decide to who, where, when it will be paid. They abandon the "regular lines" and set up their own "irregular lines". As if THEY had the insight and direct connection to the Lord that a prophet enjoys. The less sincere just quit paying it altogether.

The intellectual (a high percentage of Adventists) begin to ponder questions like, "Who IS the church?". Pulling up their stakes, loosing their anchor. They begin to indulge "fascinating theories" that are intellectually stimulating and dwell on subjects that are of little heavenly value but seem to be of great importance. As if salvation is only possible for those that "truly" understand Daniel 11 and 12. And other "deep" prophecies that "most other people" cannot possibly comprehend in the depth they understand it. Adventists are particularly suseptible to future applications of prophecy.

4. Looking to self.

You KNOW you slipped, I know it, you know it. Your not living up to all the light you have. You try, but fail, over and over. You justify and make excuses, or you don't give "it" much thought, until later. Sins of OMISSION. Not telling all the truth, is still a lie. A gesture of the hand, a facial expression, designed to mislead, is a lie. You know your guilty. Your promises and committments are like ropes of sand. Breaking one commandment is breaking them all. Rejecting any counsel from those who are not well schooled in all things "Adventist". Those without a degree, or are not "well read". Those who haven't studied these "deep things" for a few decades, as they have. As if "much reading" is the only path to salvation and true knowledge and a connection with Christ.

DON'T take your eyes off Jesus! Only believe in Him, always. The evil doer has a 1,000 ways to distract your attention. God bless....

[phkrause]

Interesting thoughts ClubV

[miz3]

Too SDA.

Not enough God, Jesus Christ and the Bible. Not nearly enough like the Beareans (sp?) of Paul's day.

It does have some good points.

[cheddar]

So I guess that SDA are the elect?

That's funny because when I read thru the book of Revelation it sounds like the 144K are the elect of God.

I wonder if all those rich Adventists will be able to buy their way into that group?

[ClubV12]

Cheddar the principles apply to any christian, some aspects apply in particular to Adventists.

Local church, Conference, etc. applies to any organized religion, Baptists, Mormons, who ever.

[ClubV12]

"She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”

"She kept doing this for many days until Paul became annoyed, turned to her and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus the Messiah to come out of her!" And it came out that very moment." Acts 16: 17-18

As patient as Paul was, he knew when to draw the line. To much hate on this forum, to many anti-Adventists allowed to run their mouth with to little control. Something needs to be done, or I'm outta here...

[cheddar]

Don't hate the player - hate the game!

Jesus is a player, He gets to mess with everyone's heads.

[ClubV12]

Lets say your an Episcopalian, or Methodist, Catholic, whatever. So you start to question "leadership". That could be at the local, National or International level. Once you start down this road the stakes get very high. Are you prepared to leave the church? Where would you go? What would you do for a new church?

Lets say you really believe the doctrines but have lost faith in the leadership. You could start your own "home church", but can't call it "Methodist" or whatever. So you say and feel your Methodist in your heart, but use a different name on your church building. Be careful printing up/distributing literature, doing evangelistic work and not using the official name.

It's virtually a gaurentee you will find others of like mind. Those "others" may be the ones who started you down this road in the first place. The organization will need funds to carry on the work, so you collect tithes and offerings. Turning in a percentage to "Head Quarters". You take another look at the doctrines and with no "anchor" to the original "GC" you are free to add, subtract, change as you see fit. You started out as a disgruntled Methodist, you will end up an "off shoot". At some point, you WILL once again begin to "question" leadership. Why am I paying tithe to the new guys in HQ? Why do I even need them? You want full control, just you and the Spirit.

Looking at the history of "off shoots" in Adventism (because I don't know about other churches in that regard) history is filled with them. The Messenger Party, Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement, Shepherd's Rod, Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God, Branch Davidians, Brinsmead group, the post-Glacier View “Gospel Fellowship” movement (Desmond Ford), Steps to Life home church movement. And the list goes on. Not only goes on, will continue, more will keep looking to "leadership", stop looking at Jesus, and leave.

When you start questioning leadership to the point of considering leaving, when you quit paying tithe, those are BIG RED warning flags. Where are you going to go? Who are you going to bind yourself up with? Staying alone is sure death, you WILL bind yourself to someone, some group. Serious issues you need to consider... Once you start down that road it is few who return, they don't even see their delusion. The light goes out and they never find the path again.

[Gustave]

Lets say your an Episcopalian, or Methodist, Catholic, whatever. So you start to question "leadership". That could be at the local, National or International level. Once you start down this road the stakes get very high. Are you prepared to leave the church? Where would you go? What would you do for a new church?

Lets say you really believe the doctrines but have lost faith in the leadership. You could start your own "home church", but can't call it "Methodist" or whatever. So you say and feel your Methodist in your heart, but use a different name on your church building. Be careful printing up/distributing literature, doing evangelistic work and not using the official name.

It's virtually a gaurentee you will find others of like mind. Those "others" may be the ones who started you down this road in the first place. The organization will need funds to carry on the work, so you collect tithes and offerings. Turning in a percentage to "Head Quarters". You take another look at the doctrines and with no "anchor" to the original "GC" you are free to add, subtract, change as you see fit. You started out as a disgruntled Methodist, you will end up an "off shoot". At some point, you WILL once again begin to "question" leadership. Why am I paying tithe to the new guys in HQ? Why do I even need them? You want full control, just you and the Spirit.

Looking at the history of "off shoots" in Adventism (because I don't know about other churches in that regard) history is filled with them. The Messenger Party, Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement, Shepherd's Rod, Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God, Branch Davidians, Brinsmead group, the post-Glacier View “Gospel Fellowship” movement (Desmond Ford), Steps to Life home church movement. And the list goes on. Not only goes on, will continue, more will keep looking to "leadership", stop looking at Jesus, and leave.

When you start questioning leadership to the point of considering leaving, when you quit paying tithe, those are BIG RED warning flags. Where are you going to go? Who are you going to bind yourself up with? Staying alone is sure death, you WILL bind yourself to someone, some group. Serious issues you need to consider... Once you start down that road it is few who return, they don't even see their delusion. The light goes out and they never find the path again.

You have summerized Protestantism aptly ClubV12...

...If everyone is in charge than no one is in charge.

...If one under this rubric is "convicted" that have have interpreted Scripture correctly.

...Then in their mind they are following the Word of God.

[ClubV12]

The mind is a tricky thing. Sister White says there are those who are sincere, and yet, sincerely mistaken. I'm sure many in the crusades were sincere, while they were killing christians. Suicide bombers are as sincere as they come. Many deluded souls are sincere.

Tis a tricky thing being sincere and yet searching for the truth as for hidden treasure. We are told that sometimes a "strong delusion" from the Lord comes to people, they really, seriously, sincerely "believe". A "strong delusion" will not come upon those who are pure in heart, those who lean ONLY on Jesus and accept and live up to the light that has been revealed to them. If your NOT living up to the light you DO have, your setting yourself up for a "strong delusion" at some point.

Nature speaks of God, I have no doubt there will be some in Heaven who learned of Gods love and never saw a bible. Others who did the best with what they had or could have had.

Note that last part, "could have had". We are as responsible for what we know as for what we COULD have known, but failed to search out.

There is no condemnation for those who have not received the light.

[jasd]

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Quote:ClubV12

miz3, stay off my threads, take your hate somewhere else. I'm asking John317 to kick you off this thread. Your a hate monger, and pathetic.

Took your eyes off Jesus, yes?

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Quote:clubV12

...and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus the Messiah to come out of her!" And it came out that very moment." Acts 16: 17-18

That’s the same tone taken by those who’ll post against another forum member, “Do not cast pearls before swine.”

Looking... looking... looking... ah, there’s the HATE. As used, both of the above are hate.

So, who’s complaining?—nobody on the receiving end. Mebbe, they have their eyes too firmly fixed upon Jesus Christ to complain, eh?

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Quote:ClubV12

miz3, stay off my threads, take your hate somewhere else. I'm asking John317 to kick you off this thread. Your a hate monger, and pathetic.

As patient as Paul was, he knew when to draw the line. To much hate on this forum, to many anti-Adventists allowed to run their mouth with to little control. Something needs to be done, or I'm outta here...

Hmmm, a Divo is born? Okay, all you mongrel mongers git!

Chill Dude. We’s in Club Adventistan, singing the Happy song. Ain we not? Well, don’t know ‘bout all you seized-up guys, but I’m singing, “La-la-la happy...” – mebbe muddled, but happy ;-)

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Quote:ClubV12

...to many anti-Adventists allowed to run their mouth

Theah’s so much o’ that censuring thing agoin’ on heah. [/sigh]

Okay, errr, mea culpa, as I run my mouth too much; however, it is not because I am antiAdventist; rather, it is because there is so much patent nonsense that begs to be withstood.

>>Are you prepared to leave the church?<<

The “church”?—or the .Org? (We do know that a Corporation belongs to Caesar/State?—do we not?) Is the text, “Go not to Bethel... (house of Gd)” applicable to our time?—or is it history?

>>Where would you go? What would you do for a new church?<<

Wherever two or three are gathered...

>>Be careful printing up/distributing literature, doing evangelistic work and not using the official name.<<

Great! Become a stealth evangelist – distributing pamphlets. Some of the world’s most significant movements began with pamphleteering.

>>so you collect tithes and offerings.<<

Umm, “Let it be, let it be... freewill offer ings...”, forbearing to make merchandise of the saints.

>>Looking at the history of "off shoots" in Adventism<<

Adventism?—or SDAism?

>>Who are you going to bind yourself up with?<<

Indeed, to lie with a ho is to share her sins... Just sayin’.

>>Once you start down that road it is few who return,<<

Mebbe, once having made the decision to ‘walk a brighter path’ – one ought not return; after all, it is the dog who returns to upchuck, yes?

>>they don't even see their delusion.<<

So, mebbe it’s necessary to discuss and identify “delusions”.

>>The light goes out and they never find the path again.<<

Yea, sorta like the near-death experience where one finds that the ‘light’ is behind him/her – instead of leading... “Hey!—I thought my wings were supposed to be feathered – mine feels like leather!”

Say what! --Pogo

[ClubV12]

Opposing views are certainly welcome by me on this forum when presented with a semblance of reason and not distracting from the topic on hand. At some point the purpose of an opposing view maybe little more than "trolling", "spam" or hate. Moderators make the final call on that.

"Delusion", what is it? Sounds like a good topic for discussion, why don't you start a thread on that? It's a BIG question that incorporates not only christianity but other world religions and beliefs as well. I could see that pulling in questions about cults and sects as well. Are Mormons a cult? Muslim suicide bomber,,, deluded, fanatic or religious zealot freedom fighter? "Off shoots", good or bad? Terrorist or freedom fighter, how do you decide?

Or tithe, now THAT is such a hot topic it also would need it's own thread, but I wouldn't mind exploring it.

All of the above assumes of course we can actually hold a reasonable conversation that stay relatively close to topic! I know,,, that is a challenge.

Are you prepared to leave the church? A question the Millerites had to grapple with after 1844!

So MANY questions to delve into!

[jasd]

>>All of the above assumes of course we can actually hold a reasonable conversation that stay relatively close to topic! I know,,, that is a challenge. <<

Sometimes, "reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder and does a participating contributor short shrift. It has always been my sentiments (not that I have the commensurate character) that should we err re the other, we do so in the most generous fashion that Gd enables our spirit. We have absolutely no idea what drives the person at his/her keyboard at the far end of the internet, and may do exceeding great harm.

I fear that I have too often offended St James re his warning re the mischief created by “our smallest member”. Too often I find myself distressed that I cannot retrieve that which I’d said or written.

I like poetry because of its concision of words (so alien to my style of writing). Yet, I cannot remember any poem (nor the words to even my favorite songs). I do, however, remember most of what

Omar Khayyám wrote (because it pertains so directly to myself), below (sharing...):

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,

Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit,

Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,

Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

[Ron Amnsn]

DON'T take your eyes off Jesus! Only believe in Him, always.

That's good advice, but from reading your posts it sounds like you really want me to believe in Jesus plus the SDA Church organization.

What happens when you look to Jesus and discover that he was never a Seventh-day Adventist?

What religion was Jesus practicing when he said, "Follow me"? That's the religion I want to be part of.

[ClubV12]

Search as for hidden treasure and you will find the religion Jesus was talking about.

"What happens when you look to Jesus and discover that he was never a Seventh-day Adventist?"

Then keep searching, because, Jesus kept the Sabbath and said clearly He would come again. He was in fact a seventh day Sabbath keeper who pointed forward to His second coming. Now how would YOU define that?

Hint: Seventh-day Adventist.

Even the Catholics wouldn't deny, in fact proudly acknowledge, that they changed the day of worship to Sunday. And, (I find this SO ironic), they point to christian churches who worship on Sunday as "proof" of their power to do so! The Sabbath is a no brainer from a biblical stand point, the seventh day, like Jesus worshiped on. The issue is, do you care? Why should you keep it? I understand some folks are confused on that issue. Catholics have the best answer, because they told you to. Everyone else just dances around it, but in the end, Sunday worship is just not biblical. Thus "Seventh-day".

I can't think of a single christian church that doesn't acknowledge the return of Jesus at some point in the future. Can you? A SINGLE christian church that denies this biblical fact? The issue is, do you care? Why should you care?

Thus, "Adventist".

You see, Jesus was in fact a seventh day worshiping, advent believing "Christian". Actually this is not some deep theology, it's readily apparent after even a modest seach of scripture or a casual talk with any educated Catholic for that matter. This treasure isn't even hidden, it's laying right out there in plain sight! :)

[Parade Orange]

The Church Jesus set up lets terrible moral sinners in and looks into their eyes and say NEITHER DO I CONDEM U [let that echo in your heart for eternity] and GO AND SIN NO MORE [its in GODS declaration that u are HOLY N RIGHTOUSE..IMPUTED that it is IMPARTED]

My SDA church dont let everyone in and looks into their eyes and say SIN NO MORE and look good

[Gerr]

What happens when you look to Jesus and discover that he was never a Seventh-day Adventist?

I don't know what Bible you are reading, Ron, but the one I'm reading says Jesus was/is a Seventh-day Adventist. He kept the Sabbath, taught the Second Coming and the non-immortality of the soul, etc.

[Gerr]

The Church Jesus set up lets terrible moral sinners in and looks into their eyes and say NEITHER DO I CONDEM U [let that echo in your heart for eternity] and GO AND SIN NO MORE [its in GODS declaration that u are HOLY N RIGHTOUSE..IMPUTED that it is IMPARTED]

My SDA church dont let everyone in and looks into their eyes and say SIN NO MORE and look good

Did He welcome Annas and Caiaphas in?

[Ron Amnsn]

I don't know what Bible you are reading, Ron, but the one I'm reading says Jesus was/is a Seventh-day Adventist. He kept the Sabbath, taught the Second Coming and the non-immortality of the soul, etc.

The Bible I read tells me that keeping the Sabbath and teaching that Messiah would return are just a part of what Jesus did and taught.

Jesus also kept the Law of Moses, attended a synagogue on Sabbaths, served fish to his followers, observed God's OT feasts, told some people to offer animal sacrifices, and affirmed those who kept and taught the Law of Moses.

He also neglected to do many things that are required of leaders and members in the SDA church.

Which Bible actually says that Jesus was/is a Seventh-day Adventist? Which SDA congregation held/holds the membership of Jesus? I think you are making this up.

[ClubV12]

Truth is progressive, Jesus did not tell His followers everything He knew then, or everything He knew was coming.

[Ron Amnsn]

Truth is progressive, Jesus did not tell His followers everything He knew then, or everything He knew was coming.

That may be (or may not be) true. When and where did Jesus tell his followers to stop doing the things he did? Not in Scripture.

If what you say is true, then Jesus obviously wasn't a Seventh-day Adventist because things hadn't progressed (or degenerated) from what they were when Jesus taught to the state where it became possible for anyone to be a Seventh-day Adventist.

[ClubV12]

Of course "new light", from Jesus, as to our christian responsibilities is all through the New Testament. Animal sacrafice, for instance, clearly that was over. Circumcision? Over. As it concerns the laws of Moses, the Levitcal laws, there is still much that is worthy of consideration. Circumcision was a big deal of course and the early church assembled leaders with representatives from around the world to consider that question. Essentially the same kind of questions your considering on this thread Ron Amnsn. Circumcision is not binding, but many, like Paul, still considered it a duty. What DOES apply now and what doesn't?

Many of these questions have to be answered from the heart. Some remain binding, some not. The pioneers of Adventism also wrestled with such questions. Like the Sabbath, binding or not? If it is binding, when does it start? Pork, a binding still applicable Levitical law, or not?

The Jews of Jesus time had some six hundred laws, much of which were non-binding at that time, concerning salvation. But all of them still enforced with an iron fist by the leadership of the Jewish Nation. Many of those laws were really non-binding, but not all of them! A sincere follower of the Lord will want to know and will search these things out to find what does and doesn't apply to them, today.

Of course Jesus, and Adam before Him, Noah and a host of others should not be confused with members of the Seventh-day Adventist church today! It just happens that their lifestyle was essentially the same in the two most important aspects of SDA beliefs today. The Sabbath, and the coming of the Lord.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Well and good that Jesus Christ kept His Sabbath and looked to an Advent; however, was He also incorporated - as in 'an entity/creature of [the] Caesar/State? I kinda doubt that He

.Orged Himself, for He was quite explicit:

Mk 12:17 ...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

I don't know but it is my thinking that - Jesus Christ believed that together with His people - that is, His body - was/is Gd's. Definitely,

not Caesar's/State's.

I don't think Him so venal

[Lysimachus]

What is so sad is that so many Christians think that we Adventists are saying "you must be a Seventh-Day Adventist to be saved".

No.

Has it been forgotten that there are thousands and thousands of denominations out there that all have different names?

If you say "I'm a Christian", and that's it, how does that distinguish you from all the other Christians who have opposing doctrines?

Scripture teaches clearly that God's end-time people will be of one mind and of one heart, with no guile in their mouth.

We believe that Seventh-Day Adventism aligns with Biblical Christianity. Therefore, all Christians and people who accept the truth---that is, the Biblical truth of the Three Angel's Messages that is to envelop the world, will automatically fall into harmony with the unadulterated Seventh-Day Adventist beliefs--whether they realize it or not.

To say "I'm just a Christian" without having any definitive concerning what type of Christian you are is to confess that you do not know where you stand. God gave us the name "Seventh-Day Adventist", and this name encapsulates a plethora of scriptural truths not inherent in other denominations. Adventism encapsulates an ideology of the soon return of the Lord, that Blessed Hope, where all the redeemed will meet Jesus in the air and go to heaven at the Second Advent--at the SAME time, while the wicked will receive "sudden destruction" and shall "not escape"--Adventism recognizes the UNITY of God's people--unity in the TRUTH---uncompromised by Dispensational divisions.

Orthodox teaching concerning the blessed hope has always been the following:

"When Jesus comes back the second time, we go to heaven".

What ideology teaches this orthodox teaching? Adventism.

What do the other ideologies teach?

"When Jesus comes back the second time, we stay here on this earth"

"When Jesus comes back the second time, we come back WITH him"

"Jesus has already come to us spiritually--this earth will simply gradually evolve into heaven"

I have not yet found ONE other denomination, save for Adventism, that holds the traditional, orthodox Protestant view of the Second Advent.

[Ron Amnsn]

Of course "new light", from Jesus, as to our christian responsibilities is all through the New Testament. Animal sacrafice, for instance, clearly that was over. Circumcision? Over.

Ok, so now you're saying it's Jesus plus "new light".

What is the process for determining whether "new light" should be accepted?

Does "new light" need to agree with what Jesus taught and lived?

Does "new light" need to agree with the Old Testament?

If you accept "new light" that disagrees with what Jesus taught and lived, how do you know it is really from Jesus? If "the elect" will accept "new light" that disagrees with what Jesus taught and lived, it sounds like it would be very easy to deceive "the elect".

If you accept "new light" that disagrees with the Old Testament, how do you test the "new light" to see if it is truly from God? If "the elect" will accept "new light" that disagrees with the Old Testament, it sounds like it would be very easy to deceive "the elect".

You're saying that in the New Testament animal sacrifice and circumcision are "over". But the New Testament doesn't actually say that. What you have said is an interpretation of some passages in the NT plus some man-made tradition. Your interpretation disagrees with what Jesus taught and lived, and it disagrees with the Old Testament, and it disagrees with portions of the New Testament.

There are other valid interpretations of those same NT passages which agree with both what Jesus taught and lived and with the Old Testament. But because those interpretations disagree with the traditions handed down from the Roman church, most people won't even consider that such interpretations might be valid.

At the very beginning of Scripture is a lesson about deceiving the ancestors of "the elect". God created the world and gave good instructions to humans. The adversary came along with "new light" and convinced Eve that God's instructions are actually not good and that God didn't really mean what he said.

It sounds like we're hearing the adversary's same message about what Jesus taught and lived. We hear that even though Jesus said, "Follow me", he didn't really mean that. Instead we hear that Jesus meant we should follow the "new light" that was coming sometime later. We hear that even though Jesus lived according to the Law of Moses, that Law wasn't really all that good. Instead we hear that we need "new light" to help us decide which parts of God's OT instructions are still valid. We hear that we need to answer this question "from the heart" instead of from God's word. This sounds like the perfect recipe for deceiving "the elect".