The current THREE views on Dan 11

[ClubV12]

Especially since 1844 we have seen many different views/interpretations of Daniel 11. I think many of them WERE accurate considering the time(s) in which they were developed and the historic conditions existing at those times.

So I will not take a position that anybody was "wrong", they COULD have been right, had the Lord come during any given time frame. We'll pass on Uriah Smiths view and go right to "our time" frame and the most current views. That is NOT to say Uriah was wrong for his time, but that was then, this is now.

TODAYS NOMINEE VIEWS ARE (may I have the envelope please);

The Russia and Communists view. Russia or Communism provokes WWIII. Well it could have been that way! But time still continues and so we move on... On the other hand, have we counted Russia out prematurely? They might make a come back yet!

The Islamic and NATO view. Islam does something really big, BIGGER than the Twin Towers, which provokes WWIII. European, American and other NATO countries "take out" Islam countries. This is the current most popular view. In view of the current world problems this makes a LOT of sense, strong case here.

The Civic view. This is the latest idea, it's SO new, I don't know ANYTHING about it yet (and that bothers me).

Which is WHY I've started this thread. Researchers: On your mark, get ready, GO out there on the web, make phone calls, send emails. Lets get some info on this breaking news!

[Windsor]

Please tell us more about this civic view. Certainly you know a little something about it or can at least share where you heard about it.

[ClubV12]

I know nothing about it. I heard there was some kind of "Net Broadcast" taking place in the near future where all three views will be presented. I understand Tim Roosenberg will be presenting his view personally. And that one view was the new "civic", I have no idea what it is. OR, where this Net Cast thing is taking place!

[cheddar]

Something you might want to consider when studying Dan. 11 is who or what constitutes the many countries that are mentioned.

Egypt is mentioned prominently along with Edom, Moab, Ammon, Libya and Ethiopia.

Many see these as the actual physical places while others see them as symbolic for many different things.

If we take Israel as an example – We know that ancient Israel was the land occupied by the actual Jewish people but the Apostle Paul also says that Jews and Gentiles alike who believe in Jesus Christ are counted as the true descendants of Abraham. So Israel can be seen as the ancient nation and also as the spiritual nation of believers made up of people from all races.

I think it would be fair to say that this principle could be applied to the opposing nations as well. Babylon is mentioned throughout Revelation and it’s not referring to the ancient kingdom but a spiritual nation of evil in the last days.

I go back and forth trying to identify these opposing nations but I have a hard time believing that Egypt represents the actual people and nation of Egypt today.

[LynnDel]

Many see these as the actual physical places while others see them as symbolic for many different things.

I don't understand exactly what the chapter is saying, but since it is not in symbolic language - no fierce beasts, etc. - I tend to think the nations mentioned are not symbolic. However, I know there are difficulties, at least right now, with that view. Could it be that this is a prophecy we don't have to understand beforehand, but is written so that we'll recognize it when it comes to pass?

LD

[ClubV12]

I've studied Daniel 11 pretty deeply and was influenced heavily by Tim Roosenberg, others and my own research. I'm "mostly" comfortable with my position on it. I think it's safe to say Roosenberg is also "mostly" comfortable. It's not 100% set in stone by anyone is my belief on that.

SO, I'd like to learn more.

Oh,,, by the way, literally "Egypt", it with a number of other countries will be overthrown by NATO when it comes against the Islamic Nations in the final battle. "Islamic" Nations will will have two choices; submit or die. Egypt submits, Iran (and other radical countries) are wiped out.

Daniel 11:40-45 are the key five verses to study, ASSUMING you already have knowledge of and accept the 2,300 year prophecy being completed in 1844. If not, your on own, start with Daniel 8 and good luck with all that.

Edom, Moab and Ammon? Today we call that "Jordan", it will be left alone, an independant country it shall remain. It will not interfere with the NATO (POPE led) alliance forces. Which set up their HQ in Jerusalem and take over the Temple Mount. Much of the world will see this as "Israel" rises again, nothing could be further from the truth. The single message this new "World Power" for ALL world countries (including Russia) has will be:

Submit, or die, just like it said to Islam, and that will include Israel and the Jews.

This "NATO" power? The combined military might of all NATO countries AND MORE in an all out, no holds barred, war with all options on the table taking out Islam first. Anybody else with a "problem" second. Something the world has never seen before, a single world ruling power with awesome military capability.

The ONLY people to escape this global war? Gods people, Sabbath keepers, who will have a death decree on their head.

I wonder how this new "Civic" view will tie into the above?

LynnDel says,

"Could it be that this is a prophecy we don't have to understand beforehand, but is written so that we'll recognize it when it comes to pass?"

You COULD say that and in SOME cases it could be true, but it's a tricky statement. Sister White says Daniel 11 is something we need to study. The more I do, the more I understand it's significance. It's reached the point that I NEED to understand this and I know why it's important. But I won't make that call for anybody else.

[ClubV12]

The more I study Daniel the better it gets, consider this:

Daniel 12:2 speaks of a SPECIAL resurrection that occurs BEFORE His 2nd coming. When SOME (not all) righteous and some wicked dead are raised at that time.

Daniel 12:7 IS righteous by faith, when the power of the Holy people has been broken, they have no power of themselves anymore. Their only hope is to cling to Jesus.

[12tribes]

Daniel 11:45

(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 9:16

(16) O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Currently Islam have the dome of the rock on the glorious holy mountain

[ClubV12]

The Islam vs Christianity model looks very reasonable based on current events.

We can already see a LOT of christian folks who are convinced Israel will once again rise to prominence and be favored of God among men. Well, it's not literall Israel, the Nation or the people as they think. It's a geographic location of significance where the North King will set up it's false christian head quarters. The North King could care less about the Nation of Israel or the Jewish belief system. The North King is simply taking control of ALL the worlds religions, Hindu, Jewish, Islam, doesn't matter what you are, you WILL submit to their power under threat of death. Just like it was during the original Crusades, submit or die.

And all the world wondered after the beast!

Satan will appear as Christ at this time, he will work apparent miracles, he will deceive if possible even the very elect! Studying and knowing prophecy will be a key component of understanding whats really going on and the evil behind it. We will not be able to trust our eyes, what we see, what we hear and feel. The deception will be "glorious" and "amazing" in appearance. Daniel, the Lords messenger has revealed it, there is no reason to be deceived on it.

[Ron Lambert]

Understanding Daniel 11:40 – adapted from a portion of my book, Genuine New Light from Revelation and Daniel, available from Teach Services, Inc., and from Amazon.com.

As we study the prophecy of Daniel 11, one essential key is to recognize that the kings of the north and south are identified in terms of their relationship to Israel. At first, this means geographical relationship—whether their armies used the northern or southern invasion route to reach or pass through Israel. But then when Israel ceased to exist as a geographical entity (at about verses 28 and 29), and must be identified spiritually (in terms of belief system) as the church, this means that the kings of the north and south now must also be identified spiritually, in terms of belief systems. Verses 30 onward in Daniel 11 depict the rise of a religio-political regime that resulted from the pagan state having "intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant." (v. 30) In other words, people within the church who betray the principles of the gospel. This new religio-political regime became a new king of the north.

Many details are given, that provide us with insights into the nature of this regime, and the method of its opposition to God. (Especially compare verse 36 to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4

What are the actual belief systems represented by the kings of the north and south? We need to remember that God is the true King of the North. Satan aspires to take His place. Note Isaiah 14:13, 14: "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Emphasis supplied.) Thus the king of the north is symbolic of a belief system that harbors the same spirit of Lucifer, seeking to take the place of God and hijack His religion and take His worshippers in thrall for itself.

This identification of the king of the north is personified in the medieval church-state political regime (which some historians have called "the Holy Roman Empire") which ruled Europe for a thousand years after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire. This system sought to install a human hierarchical priesthood in the place of Christ, and exalt its own traditions above the Word of God, and used the power of the secular state to enforce its ecclesiastical edicts.

We should not focus merely on this one manifestation of the king of the north, however. Such an oversimplification would cause us to overlook the fact that the belief system itself is larger than this one particular agency. Any religious system or religious philosophy that exalts human institutions and traditions, even those of churches, and makes them the center of worship rather than God, and seeks to use the power of the secular state to enforce its authority, ultimately reveals itself to be an attempt by the enemy of God to hijack the church and divert the loyalty and support of believers away from God to itself. It winds up making the creature the center of worship in place of the Creator. What this means is that Protestants can be part of the king of the north, too. Satan will always try to hijack every church. We should assume that he has his agents infiltrated into the leadership of every denomination, without exception. But this does not really matter. The “gates of Hell” will not prevail against the church (see Matthew 16:18), and this is true even if the gates of hell are found to be within the church. Ultimately, the Lord will take the reins of control into His own hands. The Holy Spirit will direct the church in the final conflict during the time of the end, in a “Latter Rain” outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

The king of the south encompasses the belief systems that outright deny the religion of the Bible, including secularism, humanism, agnosticism, atheism, mechanistic materialism, scientific naturalism, and anti-creationist evolutionism. Such systems manifest the same spirit exhibited by the Pharaoh of Egypt who said: "Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." (Exodus 5:2). Egypt took the southern invasion route to reach Israel, so it is appropriate for spiritual Egypt to be associated with the spiritual king of the south. (The same symbol is used in Revelation 11:8.)

We see in the prophecy of Daniel 11 that the kings of the north and south have been vying with each other through the centuries. These are the two basic approaches that Satan has taken to subverting human society. Daniel 11:40 tells us when the final showdown comes between them. And this is where we need to study the prophecy intently, because we are explicitly told four times from Daniel 11:40 to 12:13 (and it is implied several more times) that the ensuing prophetic text applies to the time of the end.

The first part of Daniel 11:40 declares: "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him."

When Is "The Time of the End"? This question is vitally important because Daniel 12:9 indicates that when the prophetic writing of Daniel 11-12 is unsealed, that will signal the start of the time of the end.

It has long been believed by many Adventists that the time of the end began in 1798, to fit in with the traditional interpretation of the time prophecies of Daniel 12. Other Adventists maintain that 1844 was the proper beginning of the time of the end, based on Daniel 8:17: "...at the time of the end shall be the vision." This could be construed to link the time of the end to the time when the Judgment and Day of Atonement Ministration of Christ began in 1844.

Now, if it is apparent that up until now the last vision of Daniel has not yet been rightly understood in full, and therefore has not before now been unsealed, then neither of those dates in history could have signaled the start of the time of the end. When the true interpretation of Daniel 11:2-12:13 has finally been understood correctly by a significant portion of God’s community of faithful witnesses, then this must be the final unsealing of the last vision of Daniel; and the true time of the end will have come.

Remembering our definitions of the symbols, "king of the north" and "king of the south," the first sentence of Daniel 11:40 means that any day now anti-religion will make a concerted attack on false religion. We do find beginning signs of this today, indicating that events are quickly building to this peak.

Modern Western society is dominated by the king of the south. Secularism reigns, religion (especially Christianity) is denounced and ridiculed, and a scientific establishment that denies God and miracles, intimidates and coerces the vast majority of scientists, educators, judges, legislators, and even many Bible scholars to follow the evolutionist, materialist party line, prevails. For years the mass media has focused on scandals in the Catholic Church involving priests. And in many places laws have been passed that virtually make it illegal to talk about religion in the workplace. Recently old heresies are being revived and popularized in such novels and movies as The Da Vinci Code, along with the "rediscovery" of ancient manuscripts long rejected as bogus such as the one purporting to be The Gospel of Judas.

It appears that the king of the south is already "pushing" at the king of the north. The teaching of Creation science or Intelligent Design in public schools is prohibited as being “non-science,” even though they are the truth. More and more, the teaching of evolution is being required even in church schools, in order for them to receive state accreditation. Pope Benedict XVI has recently declared that evolution is compatible with Roman Catholicism, thus yielding before the onslaught of the king of the south. Sadly, the true religion of the Bible is caught in the cross-fire.

It is likely the "pushing" by the king of the south will increase further, until a "trigger point" is reached (likely coming at about the same time as the multiplied afflictions of the fourth seal and first trumpet in last day application), and the king of the north will be provoked into mounting a massive counter-attack. This is what we read in the second part of Daniel 11:40: "...and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over."

This indicates that the counter-attack will be furious, with organized and concerted efforts (the chariots) with a multitude of agents on the attack (the horsemen) and with massive financial backing and economic coercion (the ships). "The countries" must represent other belief systems that will be suborned and exploited. These events are parallel to those of the second trumpet of Revelation 8:8, 9 (in last day application).

What this means to us is that a watershed is soon coming, in which the mood of Western society will drastically change. It will no longer be fashionable to be secular and agnostic. Instead, as has been the case in previous centuries, it will become fashionable to profess religious faith; while anti-religion will be socially unacceptable, subject to public ridicule, and embarassing exposés.

The figure involving countries also seems to indicate that Christianity in general will become greatly exalted. Perhaps the king of the north will find a way to be inclusive of other religions, and those religions will accept the authority of the king of the north.

At first, all this may seem like a good thing to those of us who seek to promote the truth of God. Those of us who have long contended for Creation Science and Intelligent Design will feel as if a great burden of opposition and oppression has been lifted. But our respite will be short, as we quickly realize we have only exchanged one enemy for another that is much worse, much more powerful. Eventually that new enemy will turn his attention fully upon us. The remainder of the final vision of Daniel deals with this.

[ClubV12]

Thats a great post Ron.

I agree with the author in the Kings of North and South are REPRESENTING spiritual powers CONTROLLING very real world powers. Literal armies and forces, Islam and NATO fit very well currently.

I also agree with the concept of a spiritual Israel, but again in real world terms that will physically, geographically be Jerusalem. This in itself will decieve many who are looking for Israel, the Nation, to rise again.

The Papacy will, without a doubt, be behind the North King power. Using intrique and speaking smooth sayings, at first, to get as many different groups as possible to go along with the concept of unity. Ultimately relying on physical threats and very real punishment for those who resist. Not being able to buy and sell, enforcing laws to have people arrested, etc.

[Alchemy]

I have found we need to be careful of context when it comes to this "glorious Holy Mountain".

The more I study, the more I believe this to be The New Jerusalem. Although, I still don't have all my ducks in a row with this interpretation either.

[ClubV12]

I think it applies to BOTH Alchemy. History is filled with the conquest's of Jerusalem by invading armies. The coming army will make Jerusalem their head quarters. And when this whole sad chapter of earths history is finally put to an end, that will be the location of the New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God as well. In BOTH cases, a very real world application of a conquering "King". An old world and a newly remodeled one.

[Lysimachus]

The more I study Tim Roosenberg's material and watch his videos, the more I'm convinced that he's on to something. I was never able to feel this way about Pippenger. His sermons drag on for months and months and months, and there I feel like there is no substance to what he's saying. Only psychology. But with Tim Roosenberg, there is no hype, nothing sensationalism. That the King of the North is the Papacy and the King of the South is Islam is enough to raise your hairs on end. I think this is, the most accurate interpretation for these last days. The King of the South, Islam, has been pushing on the King of the North--all the terrorist attacks we have been seeing within the last decade are of monumental proportions compared to what we've seen in the past. It is Islam that is preventing the Papacy of having world-domination. Once Islam has been subjected, then the Papacy can plant his tabernacle between the seas and the glorious holy mountain. But he will then hear tidings from the east and from the north. This is the Three Angel's Messages. And this will "trouble" him. Then he will go out with FURY to destroy them, and put a stop to them. Then Michael will stand up for His people.

Tim Roosenberg's book, unlike Pippenger, is now being sold by the ABC, and was sold at ASI. The Conference is having no problem with his interpretation I am gathering. It is making a lot of sense to people.

[ClubV12]

Saw the book, you can skip a whole bunch of chapters and cut to the chase, Daniel 11:40 to 45 section, at least for those that have a good background on Daniel 11 already. Current events are happening SO fast now, Tim's book may already be "dated" to some degree (and the ink is barely dry).

He readily acknowledges this himself as he just recently, again, updated his video's on the web site.

Not the 10 evangelistic video series, the "meat", the three hour presentation aimed at those who are already up to speed.

[Lysimachus]

Daniel 11:45

(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 9:16

(16) O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Currently Islam have the dome of the rock on the glorious holy mountain

"And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him." (Dan 11:45, ESV)

"And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the sea and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." (Dan 11:45, ASV)

"And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him." (Dan 11:45, NKJV)

"And he planteth the tents of his palace between the seas and the holy desirable mountain, and hath come unto his end, and there is no helper to him." (Dan 11:45, YLT)

I believe, in this instance, these translations are more accurate than the KJV. The KJV makes it read as though the tabernacle will be placed on the mountain. But these translations seem to indicate that the tabernacle of the king of the North will be placed "between the seas" and the "glorious holy mountain". Not ON or IN the mountain.

[Lysimachus]

Also, if you look at the geography of Islamic territory, it is mind-blowing at how generally south it's territory covers. And it's also mind-blowing how generally north the Papacy through it's European allies cover.

Western Christianity headed by the Papacy = Generally North on the Map

Islam = Generally South on the Map

[Lysimachus]

Saw the book, you can skip a whole bunch of chapters and cut to the chase, Daniel 11:40 to 45 section, at least for those that have a good background on Daniel 11 already. Current events are happening SO fast now, Tim's book may already be "dated" to some degree (and the ink is barely dry).

He readily acknowledges this himself as he just recently, again, updated his video's on the web site.

Not the 10 evangelistic video series, the "meat", the three hour presentation aimed at those who are already up to speed.

LOL, that's not like me. When I read books, I read books from cover to cover, beginning to end, slowly but surely. I save the "climaxes" for last and special, and I always like to acquire as much background on something as much as possible so that the conclusion will stand out even more in the end.

Even when I read things that I already know, I discover that I ALWAYS pick up little pieces of truth that I missed before here and there. I've read The Great Controversy 3-4 times now, and every single time I read it, I read things as though I'd never read it before. I was always shocked because I'd say "Now I don't remember reading that before! Wow!" lol

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

Daniel 11:45

(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 9:16

(16) O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Currently Islam have the dome of the rock on the glorious holy mountain

"And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him." (Dan 11:45, ESV)

"And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the sea and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." (Dan 11:45, ASV)

"And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him." (Dan 11:45, NKJV)

"And he planteth the tents of his palace between the seas and the holy desirable mountain, and hath come unto his end, and there is no helper to him." (Dan 11:45, YLT)

I believe, in this instance, these translations are more accurate than the KJV. The KJV makes it read as though the tabernacle will be placed on the mountain. But these translations seem to indicate that the tabernacle of the king of the North will be placed "between the seas" and the "glorious holy mountain". Not ON or IN the mountain.

The king of the north is but a counterfeit

Psalms 48:2

(2) Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Isaiah 14:13

(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: