Freeman or a Bondman

[Gibs]

What does it mean to be a freeman? It is being totally free in Christ's will for you. There is nothing outside of His will you no longer do as you don't care to no longer.

This can only come about but by full and complete surrender to Him and not one little thing withheld. You must know He came into this world to give you me and all power that we might have victory over committing sin. He came as one of us having our fallen nature and propensity to sin and overcame from where we are and took no power to do so than what is available to us. He in us is the same as the Father in Him and to deny that overcoming power leaves us in bondage to sin.

Dear ones, please hear me here, Christ in you is your ONLY hope of Glory. This don't need to be a mystery no more.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Don't you realize that if there wasn't a way you could overcome sin and He was just at some point going to make you a sinless being He would not have to had this horrible world of sin go on. The reason is the redeemed will take the power offered and obtain the victory and these only can He safely take into Heaven as free men in Him. He won't have it any other way than we must be freemen in Him. Those yet in bondage to sin can not and must not inherit that kingdom.

All others sorry to say are bondmen in sin, bound because they don't have faith He came to give them the victory. The promise of Glory in ONLY for the overcomer now in this life.

We prove how much we love Him by how much we will surrender. Two songs would well be sang each day, "I Surrender All" and "Trust and Obey", at least heart songs continually.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

BTW, Bro. Gibs, welcome to the forum.

[ClubV12]

The slaves who became christians in the early church were told to return to their master. They were "free men" where it really counts, in their relationship to Jesus. You can be a "Freeman" in prison!

[Gibs]

The slaves who became christians in the early church were told to return to their master. They were "free men" where it really counts, in their relationship to Jesus. You can be a "Freeman" in prison!

ClubV12,

I agree once we become free in Him nothing can take away that freedom, but you know, very few know what it is to be freed from the bondage of committing sin. None are freemen until that victory is found. Christ in us is the power over all our bents to fall in any sin. We then are empowered to walk as He walked. Set free what a wonderful experience indeed. True rest then is experienced.

[ClubV12]

That sounds a lot like Sanctification can happen in an instant, the very moment we truly accept Christ.

I am reminded of Peter, who walked with Jesus three years and was not converted until he denied Christ three times. That moment was his moment of conversion. And yet, he still sinned, he still needed the process of sanctification to continue. Paul had to meet him head on to set him straight. Ellen White was a prophet, and yet she made mistakes, she sinned, while truly converted and truly loving Jesus. Moses erred on the brink of victory. We can achieve victory only through faith in Jesus and accepting His righteousness minute by minute, because we WILL fail at some point. We are justified in a moment, but sanctified will take the work of a lifetime.

I see where your Pastor was coming from, it appears your position is that we can live a perfect life in all respects right now and if we don't, we will be lost. Like your former Pastor I reject that false and dangerous theology position.

[phkrause]

That sounds a lot like Sanctification can happen in an instant, the very moment we truly accept Christ.

I am reminded of Peter, who walked with Jesus three years and was not converted until he denied Christ three times. That moment was his moment of conversion. And yet, he still sinned, he still needed the process of sanctification to continue. Paul had to meet him head on to set him straight. Ellen White was a prophet, and yet she made mistakes, she sinned, while truly converted and truly loving Jesus. Moses erred on the brink of victory. We can achieve victory only through faith in Jesus and accepting His righteousness minute by minute, because we WILL fail at some point. We are justified in a moment, but sanctified will take the work of a lifetime.

I see where your Pastor was coming from, it appears your position is that we can live a perfect life in all respects right now and if we don't, we will be lost. Like your former Pastor I reject that false and dangerous theology position.

[Gibs]

That sounds a lot like Sanctification can happen in an instant, the very moment we truly accept Christ.

I am reminded of Peter, who walked with Jesus three years and was not converted until he denied Christ three times. That moment was his moment of conversion. And yet, he still sinned, he still needed the process of sanctification to continue. Paul had to meet him head on to set him straight. Ellen White was a prophet, and yet she made mistakes, she sinned, while truly converted and truly loving Jesus. Moses erred on the brink of victory. We can achieve victory only through faith in Jesus and accepting His righteousness minute by minute, because we WILL fail at some point. We are justified in a moment, but sanctified will take the work of a lifetime.

I see where your Pastor was coming from, it appears your position is that we can live a perfect life in all respects right now and if we don't, we will be lost. Like your former Pastor I reject that false and dangerous theology position.

Well I am not alone but in the majority as God is with me on this and so is EGW, and this but one example of her thoughts on this, and I can find read after read this strong and stronger.

"A union with Christ by living faith is enduring; every other union must perish.... But this union costs us something.... There must be a painful work of detachment, as well as a work of attachment. Pride, selfishness, vanity, worldliness--sin in all its forms--must be overcome, if we would enter into a union with Christ. The reason why many find the Christian life so deplorably hard, why they are so fickle, so variable, is, they try to attach themselves to Christ without detaching themselves from these cherished idols. {FLB 221.5}

Will we accept the condition laid down in His Word--separation from the world? . . . Our consecration to God must be a living principle, interwoven with the life, and leading to self-denial and self-sacrifice. It must underlie all our thoughts, and be the spring of every action. This will elevate us above the world, and separate us from its polluting influence".

A new theology has come in that is a ticket to eternal death. That is saved in sin as we cannot overcome the power to sin. That power is love of the world and the pet gratifications in your life and a denial of the power of the indwelling Christ.

Many have demanded preach unto me smooth things that I may feel good in the way I am in. Well that is what you have gotten. But you won't feel so good when you find it was that broad and easy road of the world and not that straight gate and narrow way that very few find.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

We are here at the time described in these verses,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

That has truly happened. This is the great stumbling block in the churchs today, listen to this,

" Now the churches have a stumblingblock placed before their feet not easily removed, and if the ones who have been engaged in this do not see and realize where they have grieved the Spirit of God and make confession of their wrongs, darkness will surely gather more densely about their souls. They will be blinded and call light darkness and darkness light, truth error and error truth, and they will not discern the light when it shall come, and will fight against it. In regard to the testimonies, God has given them all the light they will ever have. That light they have cast aside as unworthy of their respect. The state of the churches is thus: Should reproof come to those who are wrong, they will quote the leaders who do not receive the testimonies. And while no temptation comes because no reproof is given to them, they have little confidence in the men who have stood out in opposition to that which they believe to be the truth. So if these men say and do these things right in principle, it does not have any special weight with some. Thus the enemy's work has done that which has made the work of God of but little account. Now when they shall see this and confess their mistake, then the Lord can heal the wounds made, and their defeat may be turned into victory. But while they stand as they do, God's work is not appreciated and confusion and want of unity is the result". {1888 704.2}

I grant you this, this mistake will never be confessed in this age but will be at the Great Judgment Throne.

I may just make a thead "about the testimonies of EGW on overcoming our sins and that we are not to continue in sin and sin must be overcome.

[John317]

[ClubV12]

I completely agree with Sister Whites counsel on over coming sin, it's been a theme of mine on this forum for a long time. It IS possible and it WILL be done.

I will not speak to you smooth sayings that tickle the ear by any means, you will get the straight truth, with no holds barred.

"A new theology has come in that is a ticket to eternal death."

Indeed, but it is not the new theology you think it is, this "new theology", a growing movement within the Seventh-day Adventist church is that the only path to salvation is to "come out of her my people". To separate yourself from the body, the church, the Seventh-day Adventist church. This is a seriously dangerous theology your preaching Gibs. Those who think they can abandon the church as the ONLY way they can live a sinless life are under a grand delusion. It takes courage to be a christian, to be a Seventh-day Adventist, to stay with Gods people though the heavens be falling around you. To stand firm in your convictions, to LIVE that sinless life. It IS possible, it WILL be done, right there in church with my membership intact.

Your opinion of what constitutes the church is a grand lie consistently espoused by off shoots of every order, it's not new, it's a lie that goes back thousands of years.

I used to be amazed at how people could quote Sister White to sustain their obviously mistaken position, but not so much anymore. Folks who do that have a long history behind them. The Alpha apostasy of Dr. Kellogg brought such activity to high level. Compared to his ability to use Sister White to sustain false doctrine, your still an amateur Gibs!

I could provide many such quotes to sustain a position the church is in apostasy, to urge members to leave the church. They are consistently taken out of context!!! There are few, in any, I have not seen and carefully considered. Come, let us reason together.

Your certainly welcome on this forum, but it needs to be clear to the folks exactly where your coming from. No hiding.

[John317]

We are justified in a moment, but sanctified will take the work of a lifetime.

I see where your Pastor was coming from, it appears your position is that we can live a perfect life in all respects right now and if we don't, we will be lost. Like your former Pastor I reject that false and dangerous theology position.

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Well I am not alone but in the majority as God is with me on this and so is EGW, and this but one example of her thoughts on this, and I can find read after read this strong and stronger.

"A union with Christ by living faith is enduring; every other union must perish.... But this union costs us something.... There must be a painful work of detachment, as well as a work of attachment. Pride, selfishness, vanity, worldliness--sin in all its forms--must be overcome, if we would enter into a union with Christ. The reason why many find the Christian life so deplorably hard, why they are so fickle, so variable, is, they try to attach themselves to Christ without detaching themselves from these cherished idols. {FLB 221.5}

Will we accept the condition laid down in His Word--separation from the world? . . . Our consecration to God must be a living principle, interwoven with the life, and leading to self-denial and self-sacrifice. It must underlie all our thoughts, and be the spring of every action. This will elevate us above the world, and separate us from its polluting influence".

A new theology has come in that is a ticket to eternal death. That is saved in sin as we cannot overcome the power to sin. That power is love of the world and the pet gratifications in your life and a denial of the power of the indwelling Christ.

...

Brother Gibs, I agree with a great deal that you are saying, and I certainly agree with the statement by God's last-day prophet, Ellen G. White. I definitely reject the notion that people can be saved in sin and that we cannot overcome all temptations to sin through Christ's power in the life.

Check out this link to my testimony of the power of God to change lives:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/165910/12.html

The problem I have with your post is that you evidently believe we may stop all sinning at this time and that one must have altogether stopped sinning in order to be in union with Christ. (Perhaps, however, I am misunderstanding you?)

Let's look closely at the statement you emphasize:

Quote:

There must be a painful work of detachment, as well as a work of attachment. Pride, selfishness, vanity, worldliness--sin in all its forms--must be overcome, if we would enter into a union with Christ.

Ellen White is speaking here of a progressive work of sanctification, not an instantaneous sanctification that leaves a person without any sin whatsoever. We are to be constantly resisting temptation and overcoming the sins in our lives which the Holy Spirit convicts us of. It's an ongoing process, not something that occurs all at once. If we are really in connection with Christ, we will continue to see things about our characters that God wants us to change through His power.

If you study everything Ellen White has to say on this topic, you will find that she never supports the idea that before Christ's return God's people will be able to say "I have arrived."

Please closely examine the following statement by God's prophet:

Quote:

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560, 561}

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ. {AA 561.1}

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14. {AA 561.2}

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words. {AA 561, 562}

[John317]

...

A new theology has come in that is a ticket to eternal death. That is saved in sin as we cannot overcome the power to sin. That power is love of the world and the pet gratifications in your life and a denial of the power of the indwelling Christ.

Many have demanded preach unto me smooth things that I may feel good in the way I am in. Well that is what you have gotten. But you won't feel so good when you find it was that broad and easy road of the world and not that straight gate and narrow way that very few find.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

We are here at the time described in these verses,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

That has truly happened. This is the great stumbling block in the churchs today, listen to this,

" Now the churches have a stumblingblock placed before their feet not easily removed, and if the ones who have been engaged in this do not see and realize where they have grieved the Spirit of God and make confession of their wrongs, darkness will surely gather more densely about their souls. They will be blinded and call light darkness and darkness light, truth error and error truth, and they will not discern the light when it shall come, and will fight against it. In regard to the testimonies, God has given them all the light they will ever have. That light they have cast aside as unworthy of their respect. The state of the churches is thus: Should reproof come to those who are wrong, they will quote the leaders who do not receive the testimonies. And while no temptation comes because no reproof is given to them, they have little confidence in the men who have stood out in opposition to that which they believe to be the truth. So if these men say and do these things right in principle, it does not have any special weight with some. Thus the enemy's work has done that which has made the work of God of but little account. Now when they shall see this and confess their mistake, then the Lord can heal the wounds made, and their defeat may be turned into victory. But while they stand as they do, God's work is not appreciated and confusion and want of unity is the result". {1888 704.2}

I grant you this, this mistake will never be confessed in this age but will be at the Great Judgment Throne.

I may just make a thead "about the testimonies of EGW on overcoming our sins and that we are not to continue in sin and sin must be overcome.

Brother Gibs, I agree with everything you've said here, but how & why does such a belief bring a person to the point of leaving the SDA church?

There are millions of people in the SDA church who would whole-heartedly agree with all that you've written in the above.

Does seeing the truth clearly as you apparently have, and putting it into practice, mean that it's right for you to abandon the Seventh-day Adventist Church?

[cheddar]

I agree once we become free in Him nothing can take away that freedom, but you know, very few know what it is to be freed from the bondage of committing sin. None are freemen until that victory is found. Christ in us is the power over all our bents to fall in any sin. We then are empowered to walk as He walked. Set free what a wonderful experience indeed. True rest then is experienced.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

...

A new theology has come in that is a ticket to eternal death. That is saved in sin as we cannot overcome the power to sin. That power is love of the world and the pet gratifications in your life and a denial of the power of the indwelling Christ.

Many have demanded preach unto me smooth things that I may feel good in the way I am in. Well that is what you have gotten. But you won't feel so good when you find it was that broad and easy road of the world and not that straight gate and narrow way that very few find.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

We are here at the time described in these verses,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

That has truly happened. This is the great stumbling block in the churchs today, listen to this,

" Now the churches have a stumblingblock placed before their feet not easily removed, and if the ones who have been engaged in this do not see and realize where they have grieved the Spirit of God and make confession of their wrongs, darkness will surely gather more densely about their souls. They will be blinded and call light darkness and darkness light, truth error and error truth, and they will not discern the light when it shall come, and will fight against it. In regard to the testimonies, God has given them all the light they will ever have. That light they have cast aside as unworthy of their respect. The state of the churches is thus: Should reproof come to those who are wrong, they will quote the leaders who do not receive the testimonies. And while no temptation comes because no reproof is given to them, they have little confidence in the men who have stood out in opposition to that which they believe to be the truth. So if these men say and do these things right in principle, it does not have any special weight with some. Thus the enemy's work has done that which has made the work of God of but little account. Now when they shall see this and confess their mistake, then the Lord can heal the wounds made, and their defeat may be turned into victory. But while they stand as they do, God's work is not appreciated and confusion and want of unity is the result". {1888 704.2}

I grant you this, this mistake will never be confessed in this age but will be at the Great Judgment Throne.

I may just make a thead "about the testimonies of EGW on overcoming our sins and that we are not to continue in sin and sin must be overcome.

Brother Gibs, I agree with everything you've said here, but how & why does such a belief bring a person to the point of leaving the SDA church?

There are millions of people in the SDA church who would whole-heartedly agree with all that you've written in the above.

Does seeing the truth clearly as you apparently have, and putting it into practice, mean that it's right for you to abandon the Seventh-day Adventist Church?

Doggone it John317,

I sure wish to be in fellowship with you then and those millions you speak of. I sure didn't and couldn't find such a one in our local church that soon didn't leave it and the rest then were bitter toward me. They even tried to turn my wife against me. There were some who I think could see what I saw but choose not to take any stand and I was a loner in a crowd.

The first SDA church my wife and I were in was a little way out in the country in the sticks and we had wonderful fellowship. Then we came to a big town to live in and joined it and for awhile it was not too bad but all at once we saw a change in,to theology where we were theology of men wasn't brought in. Where I once was first loved or seemed to be I was soon not wanted to bring out any scripture or EGW statements to counter what was coming out to us to swallow down. My wife is a very gentle person and wouldn't take part in standing up for what was plainly untruths and she stayed some years after I left it but she now for years has almost completely given up with them as there is no edification for her there any more.

Well no more on that but that issue above was just one of many. Except for the Sabbath there is very little difference in the theology of SDA's and the worldly churhes, some better but on the same vein. Not a lot of heed is given now to certain councils of EGW except for the ones that suit the new theology.

I have fellowship with the few that pulled out that live close to me here but most that left are at some distance.

I must follow Him regardless of who counters me.

His Blessings to you Bro. John.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib says,

"I must follow Him regardless of who counters me."

An earlier comment you made about people trying to shut you up is also noted. Being "persecuted" should not be mistaken for "proof" you are on the right path. Sister White has much to say on the subject. A "persecution complex" is quite common among those who have left the Seventh-day Adventist church to form their own independant religion. I've seen it in virtually every off shoot group I've encountered. Good or bad, I'm just making an observation and noting it is a a common thread among these groups.

I'm not the most popular guy around here, I get chastised a LOT for my outspoken posts. I am often misunderstood and rebuked. But I don't make a big deal out of it, sometimes the counsel is correct! Sometimes I AM to outspoken, I'm learning. The point is, I checked my "persecution complex" at the door before I came in.

"Let everyone bear in mind that we are in no case to invite persecution." Counsels to Writers and Editors (64)

"Writers and Editors",,, that would be "US", in this forum! :)

[John317]

...Doggone it John317,

I sure wish to be in fellowship with you then and those millions you speak of. I sure didn't and couldn't find such a one in our local church that soon didn't leave it and the rest then were bitter toward me.

Yes, there really are millions of SDAs the world over who believe that God gives His people power to resist and overcome all sin. There are many here in the Loma Linda area and in other parts of Southern California.

Do you believe in the Investigative Judgment? I'm sure you must as you obviously believe in the prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White. I praise God for the light we have as a people on the IJ.

I'm wondering if you saw post #491722, just a few posts up from this one.

I see you're in Ohio. Are you fairly close to Kentucky? I am planning a trip back to Tennessee fairly soon-- probably in December-- to see my family there, and I would like to be able to drive over and see you. My sisters and other family members live in Chattanooga.

[Gibs]

John 317,

Certainly I believe IJ is true as His reward is with Him when He comes, how else could it be known which to take and which to leave.

On the post #'s I'm lost on that as they are not listed at the post, I suppose it could be put in the url. My browser don't show much of long ones.

I am mid Ohio from Kentucky and December we may be snowed in but I hope not as don't care for cold and snow at 80, old folks don't like cold.

What got you out there in Loma Linda? I have a son in law in Redlands.

I have a picture of a lithograph conceived by James White that has me puzzeled that is supposed to be in Loma Linda University and I don't where one would look, but it troubles me much. It says "Great Controversey" lithograph. The picture is not extra clear, it shows a picture of the tree of life, Jesus's cross, angels and last supper table and more. What troubles me it looks very Masonic. Now I know Ellen was strong putting down Masonry and this is why this seems so out of place. I don't know if one could go in there and see it or not, I think they just have a picture of it there and the lithograph is probably in the White Estates. If you get a chance see if one can view it.

Traveling is getting precarious as EGW has prophesied for this last time and she is right on, man it you travel, I pray His covering and watchcare.

His Blessings to you John.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.