Israel would never be a nation again

[Ron Amnsn]

In the thread "Should Christians Celebrate the Feast Days" I posted an off-topic comment saying

Life is full of surprises. A hundred years ago SDA's were preaching confidently that Israel would never be a nation again. Around 1948 they stopped preaching that interpretation of Bible prophecy.

[Gibs]

In the thread "Should Christians Celebrate the Feast Days" I posted an off-topic comment saying

Originally Posted By: Ron Ammundsen

Life is full of surprises. A hundred years ago SDA's were preaching confidently that Israel would never be a nation again. Around 1948 they stopped preaching that interpretation of Bible prophecy.

Which was enthusiastically opposed. Then, as related evidence of what was once said in the SDA church I posted, this

Originally Posted By: Ron Ammundsen

There is a related quotation from EGW that says "I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up;" (Early Writings pg. 75)

Which generated a lot more off-topic argument.

Yesterday as I had time, I did more reading in the Adventist archives to see what early Adventists were preaching and discovered there was a larger context to what the earlier Adventists were saying. That larger context shows that the SDA church has not changed the main thrust of what it was preaching regarding the restoration of Israel, and that EGW's statement about Old Jerusalem is still true in the sense she probably intended. The original thread has been locked (at least for me) so later today I will post here what I found.

Ron, Just a thought on this, God ended the dispenstion to them AD 33 and AD 34 began the Gentile dispensation. There will not be a restoration by God but man has gone about it but God isn't in it. Now most of Christianity is for upholding that Nation and will to the end. This is a sore subject to get into so I try not to get into or go any further than this.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ron Amnsn]

At the time of the Millerites and early Adventists, one of the prophetic views that was apparently popular in Christianity was the Millennial view that God would bring the Jews back to Palestine where they would accept Jesus as Messiah and rebuild the Temple. The Kingdom of Israel would be restored with Jesus reigning for 1000 years (or variations on something somewhat similar).

The Millerites opposed that Millennial view partly because the Millerites believed that Jesus would return in a year or so, and there simply wasn't time for all the events to take place that would need to happen under that Millennial view of prophecy before Jesus could return. In order to get people ready for the return of Jesus in 1843 and 1844 many sermons were preached and many articles articles were written against the the Millennial view of prophecy. Some were better than others in the way they handled the pertinent Scripture passages.

It looks like some early Adventists in their enthusiasm to show that the Millennial view was wrong, sometimes made bold statements stating that specific details of the Millennial view would never occur. Some made statements that the Jews would never return to Palestine as a nation. As history unfolded some of those statements, taken by themselves, turned out to be not completely true. A significant number of the Jews have returned to Palestine and a nation has been established successfully, contrary to some of the statements made by some preachers among the early Adventists and many other Christian groups.

But taken within the context of the debate about Millennial view of prophecy, those statements aren't yet proven false either. The Jews have not yet returned to Palestine in the manner predicted by the Millennial view. The nation set up in Israel is not the restored Kingdom of Israel as foretold by the Old Testament prophets, which the Millennial view of prophecy predicted would happen. And God's Temple in Old Jerusalem has not yet been rebuilt.

The debate continued through the years of the early Adventist church. It was spurred on by the rise of Zionism and Dispensationalism which adopted many aspects of the Millennial view.

Ellen White's statement about Old Jerusalem never being "built up" was made within the context of this debate. It was also made within months after the early Adventists grew beyond the "closed door" teaching. I think Ellen White had in mind the whole Millennial view of prophecy when she stated that Old Jerusalem would never be built up-- meaning that it would never be built up the way the Millennial view taught that it would happen -- as the restored Kingdom of Israel with a Temple, etc. Taken by itself, her statement seems to have been a false prophecy, but taken within the context of the debate about the Millennial view and the fact that those who wanted to go evangelize Jerusalem were probably influenced by the Millennial view, her statement has not yet been proven false.

After the State of Israel declared independence in 1948 and survived the attacks of the neighboring Arabs, Adventist preachers would still preach against the Millennial view, but they apparently became more careful about which specific features of the Millennial view they made bold predictions against. Growing up in the SDA church in the 1960's and 70's I never heard a preacher even suggest that Israel would never again become a nation. By that time it was already a nation.

[ClubV12]

I think the meaning of the term has changed over the years, but in 1844-45 and beyond those holding the Millenial view were called "Nominal Adventists". Today we might use that term to refer to Adventists that just go to church but don't have much interest beyond that. In Sister Whites time people were using the term to refer a group who were actually posing a danger to the newly forming Adventist church.

...come to think of it, maybe the definiton really hasn't changed that much after all.

Whats worse, open opposition to doctrine or Laodecia? Tough call.

[BobRyan]

At the time of the Millerites and early Adventists, one of the prophetic views that was apparently popular in Christianity was the Millennial view that God would bring the Jews back to Palestine where they would accept Jesus as Messiah and rebuild the Temple. The Kingdom of Israel would be restored with Jesus reigning for 1000 years (or variations on something somewhat similar).

The Millerites opposed that Millennial view partly because the Millerites believed that Jesus would return in a year or so, and there simply wasn't time for all the events to take place that would need to happen under that Millennial view of prophecy before Jesus could return. ...

Ellen White's statement about Old Jerusalem never being "built up" was made within the context of this debate.

That much is true.

But Christ slammed the door on the nation of Israel in Matt 23 by pronouncing the curse of Solomon.

And Paul confirms the Dan 9 fact that their time was up - in 1Thess 2 when he states that they had filled up the measure of the cup - their probationary period.

Thus the nation status of Israel ended.

What is amazing about this - is found in Ellen White's book - "Patriarchs and Prophets" in the chapter the "Death of Moses" - Truly an instructive chapter for anyone looking for literal Israel short of the 2nd coming.

in Christ,

Bob

[Kevin H]

When we look at the Bible, especially Deuteronomy 4 we find two plans of action for God's use of Israel: Either they were to be in a land which was the center of the world at that time. The intersection of all the major trade routes tieing together Europe, Asia and Africa. Before giving the 10 commandaments, in Exodus 19:5-6 God says why he is giving the law and what this whole thing is about-- all the earth is God's and God wanted the Hebrews to be priests for all the others. The 2 paths God offered to fulfill this goal was what we can call Land theology and exile theology.

Land Theology is where these people who appear to be athiests because they don't have an elaberate religion and don't worship an immage is expected to get the wrath of the gods, but to everyone's surprise they were to be blessed. People would want to know why and be welcomed and be told that the Hebrews were not athiests but worshiped to God who cannot be in an immage as immages were things and this God is not a thing but creator of things. Some nations would join with Israel, others would not believe Israel's message and think that this worshiping a God who was not a thing, not doing all the rituals and uniting of life forces to help out or appease the gods will get the god's wrath, and the idea of self sacrificing love was a way Israel were going to try to make them slaves, so they will reject. I can go into more detail but just read the Bible and also "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" in the SDABC.

If they were not faithful, they would get curses to encourage them to change. If nothing else worked they would go into exile, where their role was to be more individual, share with their neighbors about their unfaithfulness and God's faithfulness, and thus the gospel would be spread that way and the exile was to end with the Messiah coming to lead a second great exodus home.

The Hebrews came into the land, eventually got the David kingdom that lasted for 490 years, then went into exile. The people should have done the plan of exile theology, but that was not done, so instead of the exile ending by the Messiah leading a second great exodus, they had a lacluster return as God offered them another 490 years of land theology, the messiah to come over the last week of years and set up the kingdom. When Jesus was rejected there was a return to exile theology:

Basically land theology was stay in the land and the world will come to you, and exile theolgoy is go ye into all the world and spread the gospel.

After the rise of Rome, this piece of land turned into a corner of the world and no longer the center of the world. It is even more so now with planes and internet. The world has changed from the context that the land theology was based on. It can only be exile theology where God's people are individuals telling their neighbor about God and waiting for the Messiah to come and bring us home.

[12tribes]

Quote:

Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, [see appendix.] and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes. Such a view is calculated to take the mind and interest from the present work of the Lord, under the message of the third angel; for those who think that they are yet to go to Jerusalem will have their minds there, and their means will be withheld from the cause of present truth to get themselves and others there. I saw that such a mission would accomplish no real good, that it would take a long while to make a very few of the Jews believe even in the first advent of Christ, much more to believe in His second advent. I saw that Satan had greatly deceived some in this thing and that souls all around them in this land could be helped by them and led to keep the commandments of God, but they were leaving them to perish. I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord. {EW 75.2}

If you read the context of the quote it looks to me that EGW is talking about spiritual not literal. That there would be very few converts from Jerusalem

[Ron Amnsn]

But Christ slammed the door on the nation of Israel in Matt 23 by pronouncing the curse of Solomon.

Bob, could you tell me where to find this "curse of Solomon"?

[ClubV12]

The Curse of Solomon.

"Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah." Jeremiah 22:30

No son descending from Solomon would reign as the King of Israel again. Which is a bit of problem when you consider both Joseph and Mary can be traced to the line of David, who had a son, Jesus.

,,,,just thought I'd throw that out there because it's not quite complicated enough already.

[Ron Amnsn]

"Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah." Jeremiah 22:30

I think this is talking about Coniah the son of Jehoiakim (verse 24) rather than Solomon. Jehoiakim had other sons or brothers who could still have descendants who could sit on the throne.

There is still the problem of Jesus' genealogy, though. It seems many scholars believe the Coniah in this verse is the same man as the Jeconiah in the genealogy of Jesus.

And I think the curse of Solomon that Bob referred to was something different.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

But Christ slammed the door on the nation of Israel in Matt 23 by pronouncing the curse of Solomon.

Bob, could you tell me where to find this "curse of Solomon"?

Matt 23 "behold your house is left unto desolate"

Matt 23

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"

Christ concludes with the curse of Solomon in 1Kings 9, proclaimed at the dedication of Solomon's temple

1 Kings 9

6"But if you or your sons indeed turn away from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them,

7then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them, and the house which I have consecrated for My name, I will cast out of My sight So Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples.

8"And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone who passes by will be astonished and hiss and say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?'

9"And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"

[BobRyan]

Meanwhile worshipers from every nation sought the temple which had been dedicated to the worship of God. Glittering with gold and precious stones, it was a vision of beauty and grandeur. But Jehovah was no longer to be found in that palace of loveliness. Israel as a nation had divorced herself from God. When Christ, near the close of His earthly ministry, looked for the last time upon the interior of the temple, He said, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” Matthew 23:38. Hitherto He had called the temple His Father’s house; but as the Son of God passed out from those walls, God’s presence was withdrawn forever from the temple built to His glory. {AA 145.2}

But Israel as a nation had divorced herself from God. The natural branches of the olive tree were broken off. Looking for the last time upon the interior of the temple, Jesus said with mournful pathos, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Hitherto He had called the temple His Father’s house; but now, as the Son of God should pass out from those walls, God’s presence would be withdrawn forever from the temple built to His glory. Henceforth its ceremonies would be meaningless, its services a mockery. {DA 620.4}

[BobRyan]

THE DEATH OF MOSES -

He was permitted to look down the stream of time and behold the first advent of our Saviour. He saw Jesus as a babe in Bethlehem. He heard the voices of the angelic host break forth in the glad song of praise to God and peace on earth. He beheld in the heavens the star guiding the Wise Men of the East to Jesus, and a great light flooded his mind as he called those prophetic words, “There shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Scepter shall rise out of Israel.” Numbers 24:17. He beheld Christ’s humble life in Nazareth, His ministry of love and sympathy and healing, His rejection by a proud, unbelieving nation. Amazed he listened to their boastful exaltation of the law of God, while they despised and rejected Him by whom the law was given. He saw Jesus upon Olivet as with weeping He bade farewell to the city of His love. As Moses beheld the final rejection of that people so highly blessed of Heaven—that people for whom he had toiled and prayed and sacrificed, for whom he had been willing that his own name should be blotted from the book of life; as he listened to those fearful words, “Behold your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38), his heart was wrung with anguish, and bitter tears fell from his eyes, in sympathy with the sorrow of the Son of God. {PP 475.2}

...

Moses beheld the disciples of Jesus as they went forth to carry His gospel to the world. He saw that though the people of Israel “according to the flesh” had failed of the high destiny to which God had called them, in their unbelief had failed to become the light of the world, though they had despised God’s mercy and forfeited their blessings as His chosen people—yet God had not cast off the seed of Abraham; the glorious purposes which He had undertaken to accomplish through Israel were to be fulfilled. All who through Christ should become the children of faith were to be counted as Abraham’s seed; they were inheritors of the covenant promises; like Abraham, they were called to guard and to make known to the world the law of God and the gospel of His Son. Moses saw the light of the gospel shining out through the disciples of Jesus to them “which sat in darkness” (Matthew 4:16), and thousands from the lands of the Gentiles flocking to the brightness of its rising. And beholding, he rejoiced in the increase and prosperity of Israel. {PP 476.1}

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, it appears you are assuming something that has no proof from the words of Jesus and from prophecy. You wrote that that Israel was no longer God's chosen nation which was true, but then you also wrote that the Gentiles were then invited into this Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus never said anything like this at all, did He? It should be clear that Jesus did send His disciples to the whole world (every nation and tribe and race) in order to make them disciples of Jesus too by teaching the same thing EXACTLY that Jesus came to this world to teach. (See the last chapter of Matthew).

When a 'Gentile' becomes a follower of Jesus he is no longer a 'gentile', but a member of the Kingdom of Heaven and then must do exactly what Jesus commanded--keep ALL of the commandments and follow Him. (Matt. 19 and Rev. 12:17)