The Remnant Piece.

[Gibs]

His church that is built on Him the Rock of Ages He set on the straight and narrow way and His disciples kept it straight as long as they lived and I think John was the only one not martyred.

It stood longer than any which was getting close to 300 years. Then apostasy came in and the True ones who are the true body of Christ came out in different reform movements and called Protestantism. Protesting the wrongs that had come in. No reform movement was complete and none kept in continual reform as each drew up a creed and manual of their named church and the names were many.

Then in later years the SDA church came out of them and others that saw it was a more complete reform. Satan got into trying to take it down very quickly from the very beginning and so God sent in a messenger from Him to strengthen and guide it and bring it’s people to His Word. Today it is pretty much hidden the battles that went on in her to keep her up righted.

It began to get away from what EGW knew it should be heading in 1903 and this is were the drift really began down. Then around 1950 or a little latter, I forget the year there was a meeting with Walter Martin and Ken Samples and our leading ones were in it and sold out to them to keep from being called a cult.

It wasn't a lot more years until dissent began to raise up from the false coming in and were not heeded by the leaders and then many true ones began to break out and chose leader from among themselvess and many here also were in that. I don’t know how many of you have read the Will Ross letter but I feel it was a prophecy of EGW of this time. If I can find it I will post it at a latter time here.

Many of the ones standing for the solid principles left choosing leaders from among themselves as was stated in that unpublished letter. It was a terrible time, mixed feelings were strong on both sides of this. Yes the majority stayed but the fall off here locally has continued in members and it has polarized the members one way or the other. The following by EGW is a serious testimony you better not shake off lightly.

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people. The testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {CCh 338.5}

What actually happened was that true piece came out again, that few who are the body of Christ founded upon Him.

Here is a thought that one must come to realize. The remnant piece is smaller than the original piece. Don’t forget what Jesus said, Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Going His way is far too narrow and straight and most refuse it. This is telling us one thing and that is something most will not receive, few, few, few will find and take it.

You must see the remnant is a piece of that original that Christ founded upon Himself that the gates of hell could not prevail against it. Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He is telling Peter a stone that upon this rock, Himself, I will build my church.

Folks there is a tremendous pretentious following that is not pleasing in His sight. Want proof? -

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Folks, that is saying this is the last end of Gods fury, displeasure with sin, He is angry and shows rage

za`am zah'-am

from 2194; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage.

We are very, very close to that time now, so it’s time all need to examine your position and standing making your calling and election sure, no presumption stuff.

All MUST be overcomers.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs you should be posting these kind of threads in the "Theological Townhall" forum area. This really isn't the appropriate place to discuss Mormon and Masons taking over the leadership of the Adventist church.

[Gibs]

Gibs you should be posting these kind of threads in the "Theological Townhall" forum area. This really isn't the appropriate place to discuss Mormon and Masons tak

ing over the leadership of the Adventist church.

Golly I am a newbie and if this isn't kosher here it's OK by me to move it there, I had not dropped down yet and caught that one as there is several that are not for my use I guess I felt this was the place.

Stan if you want it moved it's fine here.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I don't know if it is or isn't "kosher" Gib's, I just thought it was something to consider. Theological threads that can "go deep" that is usually the best place. I'm not sure Townhall even has a regular moderator right now, which might be why some threads here are still here when perhaps they should be there?

...if you followed that. :)

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

The reason I didn't see it to post there is because I always clicked "main discussion topics" and so didn't see that one. Any way I now know and don't consider myself a theologian and fight against theology as the word means the theory of some one of Gods Word. Well I guess for me He says what He means and means what He says and the KJV is writen on 5'th grade level and with His Spirit none need have trouble. I must say my creed book is His Word only.

Well in a few months this particular dicussion will be so far down in the list none will read it anymore anyway. I wonder how long things are kept until they are deleted to drop the baggage that the forum will not be dragged down.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

While a thread may move down the list and be litte read, there is a lasting impact that is imparted to the readers. This is why it is a moral imperative to meet error and allegations concerning the Seventh-day Adventist church when they are posted.

It is a moral imperative for all those who love the church. None can take a neutral position on these things. We are either working for the evil one or for God as there are only two classes of people in the world.

[Gibs]

The thing I see is that a faithful Catholic that loves the church can see no wrong in her and will fight tooth and nail even though you and me may well point out to them the error in her but it is just water off a ducks back and don't sink in.

We had a man who was a faithful Catholic join our home church and we are of solid SDA doctrine and even after 25 years he cannot get his wife to see she should come out. She came several times to our services and seemed to love them. She would talk freely and not be upset but stayed unmoved.

One must be willing to see error and not shut out the input of seeing it. For sure I cannot take a neutral position.

There will always be different sees of things because of what is set and concreted in the mind and soul. Some will only be sealed and settled in the truth as it is in Gods Word and others sealed and settled in a less solid foundation that is sinking sand.

The humble and teachable ones will be in the kingdom who have surrendered all and keep His commandments and are overcomers with Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

If one see's wrong in the Adventist church was is the correct response?

Sister Whites counsel is clear on this as it relates to the church, it applies equally to the church as it does to individual members. The principles of Matthew 18. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES does she EVER make a call for ANYONE to "come out" of the church. Instead of applying Matthew 18 you have ignored the prophets and the bibles counsel by removing yourself from the church. You have ZERO authority to offer counsel to any member of the Adventist church or it's leadership as a result.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Near the end after 1903 you need to read some of her sinking of heart at the state things were becoming. No in her day I'm sure she didn't see the church as Babylon as apostasies today are many since then. I don't call her Babylon yet but where have all the Sunday chrurches fallen back into. Back in what the came out of, of course and this is something that is happening to the SDA's I'm afraid. The Sabbath is still kept and promoted I do believe for the most part but I do hear reports there are places where in them it is being said, it don't really matter, then they put forth that one day isn't to be regarded over another.

But there was a great coming out of the church over error and most were of the most faithful of the church and some ordained included. I was in it, so I know all about it.

What was the greatest error? Except for Sabbath the theology became very close to what is preached in all the mainline churches, which they thought would bring in great numbers but it went the other way. Why? God wasn't in it that's why.

Why shouldn't we come out of her? She will not change any of the errors or repent of the things come in which now are many and they have been named and I've named several before but it goes off your backs like water off a ducks back, we are not heard and don't seem like any do but we are enheatened by a few that still are beginning to see. Even though EGW didn't make that call, God sure does, a lot has went down hill in the church since 1915.

Stay there and entertain and uphold the errors if you care to but I will follow the Lord God only. You see He saves me, the church doesn't and it ceases to be His church when it ceases to follow him, so who and what is the church.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

As it concerns 1888, 1903, 1905, 1915 and several other dates around the turn of the century, I am very well versed on these issues. Including the personal lives of the pioneers during those time frames, their doctrinal positions, their moral failings. Their DREAMS and VISIONS, it was not Sister White alone through whom God spoke.

Dr. Kellogg's profound apostasy (the Alpha of apostasies) and the incredibly sad journey of A.T. Jones in following him out of the church. Jones subequent wandering from one church of Babylon to the next, again finding himself removed from membership even in a non-Adventist church! Concerning the late 1950's, I have studied that subject, and more. What of Dr. Ford? He took out over a 100 ordained Adventist Pastors with his apostasy! Apostasies started in 1844, when people began to separate themselves from Adventists over doctrinal issues!!! Major divisions over doctrine and other church issues have been a fact of life ever since. About every decade you can find some significant event that caused a large exodus from the organized church, new off shoot group formed. We are seeing another example right now, whole churches abandoning the General Conference leadership over the issue of women Pastors!

What makes you particular doctrinal dispute any different than any other group who has left the church since 1844? The principles are the same. The church "wouldn't listen" to their opinion, pride got in the way, they first threatened to leave and then did leave!

Gib's says,

"Even though EGW didn't make that call, God sure does, a lot has went down hill in the church since 1915."

Here you have placed YOUR word above the prophets. Who are we to believe? You or the Lords messenger? Come home Gib's, stop this madness, swallow your pride before it's to late, if it's not to late already.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

The "madness" you speak of is the fact of the new theology that is defended as strongly as it is in the other churches of the world, it is almost exactly the same and you cannot see it? If you can't see it I can't make you to see it but it is so apparent it baffles me you don't. I witness to all brands of them out there all the time and the salvation issue is the same in the SDA church.

This remanant piece I speak of is just that, and since the remnant is a smaller piece that just means one thing. The remansnt will be a far smaller percentage of true followers than in the beginning piece.

Now if the harvest was getting bigger all the time Christ would not come till the harvest dwindled down to the last one that will come. I am of the opinion the harvest is getting so thin that the time is very near. You will no doubt not see that but that is your decision. The few that Jesus said would find the way are getting fewer all the time as almost none now will follow Him in Truth.

Lu 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

This is a time when the question with all propriety may be asked, "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Spiritual darkness has covered the earth and gross darkness the people. There are in many churches skepticism and infidelity in the interpretation of the Scriptures. Many, very many, are questioning the verity and truth of the Scriptures. Human reasoning and the imaginings of the human heart are undermining the inspiration of the Word of God, and that which should be received as granted, is surrounded with a cloud of mysticism. Nothing stands out in clear and distinct lines, upon rock bottom. This is one of the marked signs of the last days. {1SM 15.2}

His Word is the truth, that is the word I speak. This "new theology" is the words of man.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib's says,

"I am of the opinion the harvest is getting so thin that the time is very near. You will no doubt not see that but that is your decision."

There are many within the church that know, understand and accept the fact that time is very short. Your aggrogance and your assumption that I or anyone else will "no doubt not see that" is offensive, to say the least. Speak for yourself Gib's, you have no authority from heaven or on earth to declare "without a doubt" what others think. Your attitude does not serve to "press together" it is a divisive element you bring. There are are only two groups of people in the world, those who serve God and those who unwittingly serve Satan. "Without a doubt" I don't know from which camp you hail.

[Gibs]

Gib's says,

"I am of the opinion the harvest is getting so thin that the time is very near. You will no doubt not see that but that is your decision."

There are many within the church that know, understand and accept the fact that time is very short. Your aggrogance and your assumption that I or anyone else will "no doubt not see that" is offensive, to say the least. Speak for yourself Gib's, you have no authority from heaven or on earth to declare "without a doubt" what others think. Your attitude does not serve to "press together" it is a divisive element you bring. There are are only two groups of people in the world, those who serve God and those who unwittingly serve Satan. "Without a doubt" I don't know from which camp you hail.

ClubV12,

But do you see that the harvest is getting thinner all the time? I didn't see any comments from you that it is. Is it arrogance of me then to say what is apparent. Remove my doubt by letting me know you see that.

You say I should press together. Not on error I cannot and will not. I sure will press togeter with those who are of the truth and can show it from His Word as that is my following and none other.

This what that remnant piece is, those few that stand on that Rock that established His church upon Himself, The Word. So what must I be of to be of that remnant piece? His Word. He is that Word. That is so Rock solid. All other ground is sinking sand.

The only one that has not fallen and will not.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

"You should guard against taking narrow views of religion..."

Testimonies for the Church, Volume 4 pg 62

This thinner harvest you see is within the church, you need to look again, a little higher. I see a different harvest. I see a great multitude in Sunday keeping churches and at various locations around the world, some not even going to church! Men and women who love the Lord and are preparing their lives daily in the little things that develop character. I see them coming into the church to once again fill the pews and swell the numbers, replacing those who have been shaken out.

I see some Adventist within the church making decided changes in their lives, true reformation and revival, awaiting the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This will be preceded by a false reformation and revival and many will be sure they are converted, as a grand delusion sweeps over them. In time, they will leave, their true character revealed, the church purified. But not yet, we must wait on the Lord and not run ahead of Him.

Many of these new Adventists will have a very limited understanding of doctrine, but their love for the Lord will be deep. Some would make the decision to follow Jesus fully and completely right now, but are trapped in circumstances that present such a moral delima it is impossible for them to do so. William Miller faced such a delima and God laid him in the grave to save himself from himself. I myself have faced this, I know the pain Miller felt, being trapped, no way out, sincerely misled by others. How can you abandon family, friends, your job, responsibilities within the community that would cause great pain and suffering were you to leave? How can you fully put your hand to the plow and ignore those home duties at the same time? Many cannot, not yet, but soon, when the persecution begins in earnest, they will hear the call clearly. They will be compelled to abandon; Family, friends, wives, husbands, children, their job, their earthly responsibilities to follow God even if it means going to jail or dieing for the Lord. Children will leave their parents, husbands their wives, it is the time of harvest. But that time for all has not yet come, wait for it, for it surely will come. A time of a great and wonderful harvest where the people of God will be perfectly united. I pray that I might remain faithful and be ready to accept and offer guidance and spiritual understanding to those who have newly come into the church.

Will you be there to help, Gibs? Or will you be grumbling, complaining and pointing your finger at the church and declaring it is in apostasy and has fallen? Josiah was very sincere and zealous for the Lord, and he went into battle and was killed because he could not accept that God was speaking to him through a non-Jewish King. We need to be ever sensitive to how God may be trying to reach us and in our zeal, miss the message.

[Gibs]

I will remain a warrior against the most popular error that is in practically all Christianity today. The saved in sin dogma that teaches Christ did it all, none need do anything but have faith and believe. None need it is taught need to overcome their sin as it has been taken care of once and for all. That is the "new theology" false gospel in a nutshell.

I will not fall in and help teach anyone such as that, you have too much help on that now, just one teaching it is too many. Teaching it will sink your boat and theirs.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

That verse isn't talking about an anthill but it is about sin.

You and all can overcome, because,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Good for you Gibs, Jesus said there is only ONE teacher and that is Him and with the help of the Holy Spirit we can have this same help IF we study the words of Jesus givenn to us by His eyewitnesses.

Rev. 12:17 talks about the last of the offspring of the Holy Spirit (the Woman) who Statan goes to war with. These are the ones who keep all of the ten commandments and hold to the teachings (testimony) of Jesus.

Just as Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler, if you want to inhearent the KOH you must keep all of the ten commandments and follow Jesus. Period! This, by the way, is the gospel that Jesus taught and is called the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

The other gospel that teaches saved by grace and righteousness by faith is not from Jesus. This is the one where people come to the understanding that they don't have to keep the ten commandments.

[Guest]

You were doing good Rich, until you dropped the slander hammer on righteousness by faith. Which is the only way anybody is going to be saved.

Unless you've been perfect and sinless all your life, you better have some faith.

[Guest]

ClubV12, do you believe that your salvation depends on whether your name is on the church books or not?

[Dr. Rich]

You were doing good Rich, until you dropped the hammer on righteousness by faith. Which is the only way anybody is going to be saved.

Unless you've been perfect and sinless all your life, you better have some faith.

One does not have to be sinless all of his life--just sinless after asking for forgivness. This is what is called overcoming sin--as found in those who have overcome sin in Revelation 3.

Faith is something everyone starts out with. It's much like a child having faith that a light will turn on when switching on the switch. The child has not yet learned the truth regarding electricity and when the light fails to come on, will be left in the dark--just as all of those who refuse to search for the truth because they remain uneducated in blind faith. Jesus clearly came to this world to testify to the truth (John 18:37), problemm is, one must be practicing truth to understand what Jesus testified to.

Remember, those in the "Remnant" or the last of the offspring of the Holy Spirit, will not have any lies in thier mouths, as they will be totally blameless--not because of their faith in Jesus, but because they have learned the truth (gospel of the KOH) and practice it. (Rev. 14:5)

[Guest]

One does not have to be sinless all of his life--just sinless after asking for forgivness.

And how do you know you're forgiven? Can you prove it?

No you can't. But you choose to believe that what the Bible says is true regarding salvation and forgiveness. That, my friend is faith plain and simple.

___________________________________________________________

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is proud is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

[Dr. Rich]

There are key texts I have found in the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses Matthew and John. These key texts are words from Jesus that no one in their right mind would write IF Jesus was not who He said He was.

Here is the thing: The value of a Federal Reserve Note is nothing without faith in it's ability to be traded to someone who is stupid enough to take it for something. As long as people just have 'faith' and do not learn the real truth, they are happy with the Fed being able to make this 'fiat money' out of thin air. But what is really happening here is that people all over are practicing a lie--trading something that has no intrinsic value. When the truth 'hits the fan' then what is going to happen to this phony fiat money? What has caused the present economic chaos is the practicing of a lie because of faith.

The same can be said for religion. All man made religions today, including Christianity, want you to believe because of 'faith'. They don't want you to know the truth because then their house of cards would fall. Problem is, someone like what I am now doing about 'money' vs 'lawful money', is going to come on the scene and point out the real truth, it being the actaul words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses only. Jesus said one is set free from sin by truth, not 'faith'. I for one totally KNOW that what Jesus said is the real truth. I am therefore a follower of Jesus, not by blind faith either.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich,

It is that knowing He and His Word are Truth and with no doubt whatsoever that we can have faith and trust. We don't have blind faith no more but true faith because of Truth, He is The Truth.

Yes you bring us to a deeper understanding there, it just may be profound.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

RLH, one's name does not have to be on ANY church books in order to find salvation! I'm sure there are even members of the Adventist church who have been disfellowshiped from the Adventist church that were right with the Lord and their salvation is assured.

The KEY THING here is: Are you living up to the light you have been given AND, just as important, the light you COULD HAVE gotten from study but just did not bother!

I am absolutely certain (it's an anchor point) that for ME I need to be an active member of the Seventh-day Adventist church. It is my calling. Should I remove myself from membership and withdraw my support my own salvation would be at stake. I would be rejecting the light I have been given. This "anchor point" is so firmly rooted that EVEN IF the church WERE to disfellowship me I would mail in my tithe and offerings if that is the only way I could support God's church on earth, the single object of His supreme affection. Though they make mistakes, though they appear to fall, the church will not fall. I will wait upon the Lord to restore me to an active roll within the church, should that be His will. And I will do that with forgiveness and humble spirit searching my own soul for whatever part I may have played in such a terrible outcome.

As a christian, as a member of God's church on earth I, we, also have a responsibility to speak the truth to those who have left and are openly "fighting against" the church. In some cases, openly "fighting against" the Spirit of Prophecy. Such cases cannot be taken lightly, souls are at stake. Love must be tempered with the straight testimony.

There is a HUGE difference between those who are not sure of their faith, the church or the Spirit of Prophecy and are struggling with these issues. And those who have openly engaged in "fighting against" these beliefs. The later must be disfellowshiped, there are no other options if they persist. The church is better off without them and it is their only hope of ever seeing their substantial error.

[ClubV12]

Dr. Rich and Gib's,,,, this should be an interesting doctrinal discussion between those two! I'm getting some pop corn for this!!! :)

[Gibs]

That remnant piece abides in the Truth, that precious Truth that isn't seen today for the precious gem that it is.

Here is a quote from EGW as most here are Adventists but it wouldn't matter who thes statement came from, it can not be refuted.

"We want the truth on every point, and we must search for it as for hid treasures. Dishes of fables are presented to us on every hand, and men choose to believe error rather than truth, because the acceptance of the truth involves a cross. Self must be denied; self must be crucified. Therefore Satan presents to them an easier way by making void the law of God. When God lets man have his own way, it is the darkest hour of his life. For a willful, disobedient child to be left to have his own way, to follow the bent of his own mind, and gather the dark clouds of God's judgment about him, is a terrible thing. But Satan has his agents who are too proud to repent, and who are constantly at work to tear down the cause of Jehovah and trample it under their feet. What a day of sorrow and despair when these meet their work with all its burden of results! Souls who might have been saved to Jesus Christ have been lost through their teachings and influence. Christ died for them that they might have life. He opened before them the way whereby they might, through his merits, keep the law of God".

We want the Truth on every point but there is one issue we MUST have it on every point, the salvation issue, beware of the false gospel, it is rampant today in ALL the churches of the world.

Don't you know the Truth is we MUST be an overcomer to be in His Kingdom?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.