RCC Lateran IV model for Islamic extremism

[BobRyan]

Does it not make sense that Adventism will ally with militant Islamic forces?

...As a "theological union" already appears to exist between the two bodies of Islam and SDA.

[BobRyan]

Simply so that I could quote paragraph 842 & 843 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

842

The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. .

843

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers ALL goodness and truth found in these religions AS "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.

You will note that what the SDA publication boasts is good about Islam....

...Is the theological bond between Islam and Adventism.

...And THAT is the repudiation of the Trinity.

Wrong - the article you quoted said nothing at all about repudiation of the trinity. Rather that article you quoted said that Islam's affirmation of monotheism is correct -- (or were you wanting to claim that the RCC is polytheistic? Whew! The odd places you take your SDA bashing!).

As for the other statements above saying that Islam is correct to believe that God created the World and that the story of Adam and Eve is true -- note.

Islam teaches that creationism is true so also does the SDA church claim that in our universities.

The RCC teaches evolutionism as the real fact of origins in its universities.

But more specifically - the links between the RCC and Islam go even more directly to the issue of what you called radical "militant Islam" that calls for the death of infidels.

Why in the world would you want to bring that up??

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Gustave argues that the statement below is closer to Militant Islam than the Pope's kissing and bowing to the Koran or the LATERAN IV statement on the "extermination of heretics" as compared to militant Islam and their "death to infidels" ideas borrowed from Catholicism.

Does it not make sense that Adventism will ally with militant Islamic forces?

...As a "theological union" already appears to exist between the two bodies of Islam and SDA.

Review and Herald October 28, 1909

The creed of that faith is generally compressed into the wellknown formula: "There is no god but God, and Mohammed is his prophet".

But there is another and longer form, which reads as follows,

"I believe in God and his angels, and his books, and his prophets,

and the last day, and the predestination of good and evil by God,

and I bear witness that there is no God but God

, and I bear witness that Mohammed is his slave and his prophet.

From the above it must be perfectly clear that Mohammedanism is very far from being the heathen religion, as some are wont to believe.

It teaches

1. (A Monotheistic) belief in God,

2. angels,

3. the prophets,

4. the last day,

5. and the resurrection of the dead.

u]More than this, About one half of the koran is a polemic against polytheism and TRINITARIANISM. In fact the word Allah is an abbreviation of Al-iah which means the ONE, TRUE, ONLY God. There is something in the nature of a challenge in the word itself to the dominant Christian church of the period when Mohammedanism arose. For the church at that time was sunk in the maze of the worship of saints and images when Mohammed came asserting THAT everlasting truth: "THERE is but ONE GOD

[Gustave]

Wrong - the article you quoted said nothing at all about repudiation of the trinity. Rather that article you quoted said that Islam's affirmation of monotheism is correct -- (or were you wanting to claim that the RCC is polytheistic? Whew! The odd places you take your SDA bashing!).

[phkrause]

Evidently because you need a history lesson....

...Besides that you can easily observe why the SDA publication gave a glowing review of Islam.

...It's simply becaue they agree with Ellen White that neither the Holy Spirit or Jesus is God.

...In the ultimate sense.

Page 10 of the following if you would like to confirm I quoted the SDA publication...

...In context.

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19091028-V86-43__B.pdf#view=fit

What a joke that statement is, John317, has shown over, and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over,and over, gets tiring after a while, that that statement is not true. I believe if we had a survey on that to see what people have read on this subject by EGW, we'd see that you are way off. And have no leg to stand on.

[Gustave]

Pkrause,

I've backed up everything I've said with direct sources from SDA publications...

...I realize that what I'm alerting you too has struck a nerve ending.

...And for that I'm sorry.

Ellen White, Youth Instructor July 7, 1898, para 2

"The Father and the Son ALONE are to be exalted"

Ellen White,The Signs of the Times, October 14, 1897 par. 3

In order that the human family might have no excuse because of temptation, Christ became one with them. The ONLY BEING who was one with God lived the law in humanity, descended to the lowly life of a common laborer, and toiled at the carpenter’s bench with his earthly parent

Review and Herald, Nov 10, 1891

1. What is the meaning of the expression, "another

comforter," in John 14 :16? 2. Please explain 1 John 16 : 13.

3. If the Holy Spirit is NOT a person, what is meant in 1 John 5:7? A. O.

Ans.—1. Christ is himself a comforter ; and while he was here upon the earth, the disciples rested in his personal presence. But he was about to go away, and what would compensate them for the loss of his presence ?—He promises, '' I will send you another comforter " in my place, that is, the Holy Spirit.

2. John 16:13 describes the work of the Holy

Spirit, and it is so connected with the Father and

the Son that it is itself personified and spoken of as

doing what the Father and the Son do through it.

3. 1 John 5 : 7 IS an interpolation

Should you require more to demonstrate that Ellen was on the above sheet of music...

...I assure you there is much more I can share with you.

[Gustave]

The doctrines specifically approved above are belief in -

1. Monotheistic belief in God,

[BobRyan]

Nothing at all like "exterminate heretics".

Nothing at all like "death to infidels".

But we did have a lot of "monotheism".

Still Ellen White came from United Methodist background and by the time of your 1909 quote was already on record declaring the Holy Spirit to be "the Third Person of the Godhead".

What is more - the first published list of SDA beliefs goes all the way back to 1872 - not a single one of them has ever stated that there is no Trinity or said anything at all against our published doctrine about "One God in Three Persons".

you are simply barking up the wrong tree.

And then you are stuck with that whole "exterminate heretics" thing in the dark ages where today the RCC still claims that it is "infallible" in that regard.

Why in the world would you decide to pull up the idea of similarity with Islamic extremism when your own infallible "exterminate heretics" of Lateran IV is the perfect echo of the Islamic extremist "death to infidels" doctrine?

Why would you think to go there?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The Editor of that article was William A. Spicer...

...Who served the SDA Church in the following capacities.

• Security for Stephen Haskell
  
  
• Secrectary Foreign Mission Board
  
  
• Secretary of the General Conference of SDA
  
  
• President OF the General Conference of SDA
  
  
  
  
  
  Actually your case would have been great if you found something in the SDA doctrinal statement that said that "William a Spicer speaks infallibly on doctrine whenever he publishes a statement in the Review because this is his way of speaking ex-cathedra".
  
  Or maybe a statement that said that William A Spicer is the vicar of the Son of God and as such his statements and pronouncements are infallible - when speaking ex-cathedra.
  
  If we have made such claims -- please point to them -- otherwise you are stuck "making stuff up" in that regard.
  
  Meanwhile you are also stuck with the fact that Lateran IV was an ecumenical council and as such speaks "infallibly" when it writes in canon law - the decree to "exterminate heretics".
  
  A decree that is clearly the sister to the extremist Islamic dark ages idea of "death to heretics".
  
  Why in the world would you bring this issue of similarity to Islamic extremism up as if it is making a case in favor of the RCC?
  
  in Christ,
  
  Bob

[BobRyan]

Ellen White, Youth Instructor July 7, 1898, para 2

"The Father and the Son ALONE are to be exalted"

When quoting Ellen White - do your best to put two sentences together as you hack cut-and-paste. Let me show you how to do it.

"There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."—Evangelism, p. 615.

"Those who proclaim the third angel's message must put on the whole armor of God, that they may stand boldly at their post, in the face of detraction and falsehood, fighting the good fight of faith, resisting the enemy with the word, 'It is written.' Keep yourselves where the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself unreservedly to God. The strength of heaven is at the command of God's believing ones. The man who takes God as his trust is barricaded by an impregnable wall."—The Southern Watchman, Feb. 23, 1904, p. 122.

"Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfillment of the covenant that God has made with those who bind themselves up with Him, to stand with Him, with His Son, and with His Spirit in holy fellowship. Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then co-operate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf. Doing this you will reveal to the world the principles of righteousness." —The Signs of the Times, June 19, 1901.

"The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin."—Evangelism, p. 616.

"We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God."—Ibid., p. 617.

Third Person of the Godhead

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. 2 Cor. 13:14. {FLB 52.1}

We need to realize that the Holy Spirit . . . is as much a person as God is a person. . . . {FLB 52.2}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. {FLB 52.3}

[BobRyan]

As for the other statements above saying that Islam is correct to believe that God created the World and that the story of Adam and Eve is true -- note.

Islam teaches that creationism is true so also does the SDA church claim that in our universities.

The RCC teaches evolutionism as the real fact of origins in its universities.

[Gustave]

Nothing at all like "exterminate heretics".

Nothing at all like "death to infidels".

But we did have a lot of "monotheism".

[Gustave]

Again you merely misdirect with a half-truth. My statement was that at RC universities such as Notre Dame - blind-faith evolutionism is taught in the science courses as fact -

[BobRyan]

Again you merely misdirect with a half-truth. My statement was that at RC universities such as Notre Dame - blind-faith evolutionism is taught in the science courses as fact -

[BobRyan]

You merely point out that the Pope will "allow" Catholics to believe the Bible instead if they so choose.

[BobRyan]

My reason for pointing to this - is that it is one of the things in that list. Islam rejects evolutionism -- and accepts the Bible account instead.

[BobRyan]

So also do SDAs - so unlike the similarity between RCC and Islam on the "death to infidels" and "exterminate heretics" subject - here we have similarity between SDAS and Islam that is Bible affirming.

The point remains.

[John317]

In "legal code" the Bible says "For in SIX DAYS the Lord made the heavens and the earth the seas and aLL that is in them and rested the Seventh day".

The point remains.

But as you point out - Catholic man-made-tradition seeks to invalidate - replace - the Word of God on this point of "legal code" found in the Bible.

Yes, because the Catholic Church accepts the authority of Church tradition over the authority of the Bible.

The Bible is very clear that the seventh day is the day on which God rested, which is why He declared it blessed and holy. He never blessed or made holy any other day of the week.

Hebrews 4:4

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."

[BobRyan]

Nothing at all like "exterminate heretics".

Nothing at all like "death to infidels".

But we did have a lot of "monotheism".

Still Ellen White came from United Methodist background and by the time of your 1909 quote was already on record declaring the Holy Spirit to be "the Third Person of the Godhead".

[BobRyan]

Did you forget these statements on the subject of "One God in Three Persons"??

Or did you confuse this with the polytheistic practice of praying to deceased ancestors?

"There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."—Evangelism, p. 615.

"Those who proclaim the third angel's message must put on the whole armor of God, that they may stand boldly at their post, in the face of detraction and falsehood, fighting the good fight of faith, resisting the enemy with the word, 'It is written.' Keep yourselves where the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself unreservedly to God. The strength of heaven is at the command of God's believing ones. The man who takes God as his trust is barricaded by an impregnable wall."—The Southern Watchman, Feb. 23, 1904, p. 122.

"Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfillment of the covenant that God has made with those who bind themselves up with Him, to stand with Him, with His Son, and with His Spirit in holy fellowship. Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then co-operate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf. Doing this you will reveal to the world the principles of righteousness." —The Signs of the Times, June 19, 1901.

"The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin."—Evangelism, p. 616.

"We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God."—Ibid., p. 617.

Third Person of the Godhead

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. 2 Cor. 13:14. {FLB 52.1}

We need to realize that the Holy Spirit . . . is as much a person as God is a person. . . . {FLB 52.2}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. {FLB 52.3}

[BobRyan]

Find me something, please, from the SDA Church in the way of an offical statement...

...That says something different then what we see in the time hack of Ellen's life.

Well as we saw - you could not put two sentences together in your efforts to quote something Ellen White said on the subject of the Trinity - even though I gave you all that "One God in Three Persons" Material to choose from - essentially doing the work for you.

How sad.

Secondly - the earliest published statement of beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists formally published in the 1800's is from 1872.

There you will find NO Trinity-bashing or trinity-denying statements.

That is also true of every published statement of belief that followed.

Would you like a link to that statement of beliefs? I am happy to share it.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

... the earliest published statement of beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists formally published in the 1800's is from 1872.

There you will find NO Trinity-bashing or trinity-denying statements.

That is also true of every published statement of belief that followed.

Agree. As a matter of fact, the editor of the R&H published our beliefs in 1907 (or 9?) in which he stated that "the SDA church believes in the Trinity." Shortly afterward, Ellen White selected this editor, Wilcox, to serve on the board of her Estate. She wouldn't have done this if she didn't trust his judgment on doctrinal issues.

The article Wilcox published in R&H was on the page opposite an article by Ellen White, so she unquestionably saw his article. She always read her articles to make sure they were printed correctly.

Ellen White herself never denigrated the Trinity, as her husband James did.

[Gustave]

Well as we saw - you could not put two sentences together in your efforts to quote something Ellen White said on the subject of the Trinity - even though I gave you all that "One God in Three Persons" Material to choose from - essentially doing the work for you.

[Gustave]

Agree. As a matter of fact, the editor of the R&H published our beliefs in 1907 (or 9?) in which he stated that "the SDA church believes in the Trinity." Shortly afterward, Ellen White selected this editor, Wilcox, to serve on the board of her Estate. She wouldn't have done this if she didn't trust his judgment on doctrinal issues.

The article Wilcox published in R&H was on the page opposite an article by Ellen White, so she unquestionably saw his article. She always read her articles to make sure they were printed correctly.

Ellen White herself never denigrated the Trinity, as her husband James did.

John, could you link the R&H in 1907 where Wilcox states the SDA's believe in the Trinity...

...I want to make sure this isn't the famous "anti-Trinity Spears" article.

...Which easily proves everything I've been saying.

Is that it John?

[John317]

John, could you link the R&H in 1907 where Wilcox states the SDA's believe in the Trinity...

...I want to make sure this isn't the famous "anti-Trinity Spears" article.

...Which easily proves everything I've been saying.

Is that it John?

I don't have a link; I'm reading it in a book.

But no, it has nothing to do with any "anti-Trinity Spears" article.

It's in an article by editor F.M. Wilcox titled "The Message For Today," Review and Herald, Oct. 9, 1913. There he wrote that "Seventh-day Adventists believe,-- 1. In the divine Trinity. This Trinity consists of the eternal Father... the Lord Jesus Christ.. [and] the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead."

The article summarizing the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventists follows directly after an article by Ellen White.

This is the same Wilcox who wrote of Seventh-day Adventists' belief in the First, Second, and Third Persons of the Godhead, in our "Fundamental Beliefs" statement of 1931. It was both in the "Baptimal Covenant" and Church Manual which was adopted by the Church in 1941.