Thanksgiving thoughts

[Guest]

Thankful acknowledgment that all things come of God...

"By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God's dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God's kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him.

"This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man's surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial--a second probation--having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God's law as they did. And inasmuch as man enjoys the blessings of God in the gift of the sunshine and the gift of food, there must be on the part of man a bowing before God in thankful acknowledgment that all things come of God."

Faith and Works, 21-22

[Igakusei]

I stopped thanking God for giving me stuff when I realized that giving God credit for all of the blessings I enjoy required giving him credit for doing absolutely nothing for kids like this:

I want nothing to do with such a capricious god, who would bless me simply for being born to Christian parents and curse this family for being born in Africa. I want you to remember this picture every time you thank God for helping you find your misplaced keys and wallet.

The world would be a MUCH better place if people stopped pretending that all things come from God and realized that the only people looking out for us is each other.

[Gail]

Igakusei, there is a Bible verse that talks about tares and wheat both growing together until the harvest.

When the landowner looks over all the weeds, he says, "An enemy has done this."

:(

[ClubV12]

Thanks for this thread RLH, I very much enjoyed that quote from Faith and Works. Praise God for His mercy to us.

[Igakusei]

Igakusei, there is a Bible verse that talks about tares and wheat both growing together until the harvest.

When the landowner looks over all the weeds, he says, "An enemy has done this."

I don't see how that addresses my point.

[ClubV12]

Do you know who the enemy is?

The evil doer. He is at work all across the planet, in the church, in the home, in the wars where he loves to see the soldiers mowed down. Death to all is his goal, but God restrains his hand, lest the entire earth be left desolate. Soon this Great Controversy will be ended and God, who stands accused, will be vindicated.

We must develop patience, He WILL come, wait for it....

[Igakusei]

My thoughts are that if you're just going to use the "wheat and tares" response (i.e. it's the fault of bad humans that the innocent Africans are in that situation and not God's), then it's only fair to apply the same logic to our own situation and acknowledge that our relative material abundance is also due to the actions of humans.

If I were to believe that God even exists, I can't accept that he has given me all of these blessings without also acknowledging that he as chosen not to bless so many other, often more deserving people. To me, it's far more sensible to see that some of us are simply far luckier by birth and circumstance than others, and the only thing I see your line of reasoning doing is removing responsibility from yourselves to do anything about it.

Isn't that the big sermon from the Christian Right these days, that the poor only have themselves to blame? It's a shameful travesty.

[Igakusei]

Is nobody else going to take me up on this?

Seriously, next time you sit down to lunch and thank God for the food in front of you, if you really believe that God is actively participating in providing for you, ask yourself why you deserve his special attention so much more than all those others.

Instead of thanking god for your blessings, why not try thanking your fellow human beings? Then pay it forward by helping someone out who is in need.

[Gail]

Not blaming the starving at all. I'm saying that it's not God that inflicts suffering, but an enemy.

And I do contribute to aid organizations. My son and daughter-in-law worked for NGOs, my son still does, my daughter-in-law founded an organization that helps children of war and my son sits on the board of Freedom Stones which supports women in Africa and SE Asia to take them out of the human trafficking trade.

The need is so great that these organizations aren't enough, but there are people who are trying to relieve what they can.

[Igakusei]

I'm not saying that God is inflicting suffering, but that he is allowing it to continue. You supposedly have an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent deity out there who cares so much about the world that he does all these things to help it... but he neglects to help the parts of the world that are the most afflicted and abused. That's the problem with postulating a God that actively interacts with the world. If you're going to give him credit for the good things that happen in your life, you have to give him credit for not doing good things in the lives of others. I'm not saying that he caused this suffering, but that he simply allows it to continue.

A common SDA response is that God must allow sin to run its course so that the entire universe can understand the consequences of disobeying God, and I suppose that can work, but then why in the world is he intervening in our lives to bless us with all this stuff if he's allowing sin to run its course?

Do you see my point? It's a total double standard.

[Gail]

Well, there are also plenty of bad things that happen to people of affluent countries as well, as well as blessings to those in the poor. I have a FB African friend who is a widow with AIDS, 3 children, but she is a believer and still is able to give thanks and praise her heavenly Father. She is not asking, "Why?"

The Christian world does have the hope that at a time (coming soon, I believe) in the future the world will be set right once and for all. The world waited a long time for its Redeemer to come, but the Bible says that Jesus came when the fulness of time had come. The timing was right, although we might not understand it now.

I think it's good that you ask the question. I do also think it good for people to have a grateful attitude no matter where they find themselves.

It can't hurt!

[Gail]

I didn't mean to brag about the work that my kids are involved in. But they are trying to be a part of the solution of very big problems.

Please PM to ask me more about what they are connected to. It all costs money and they are constantly fundraising. But it is a way that we here in North American can help in the war against human trafficking in Asia or Africa or to help train Liberian kids in life skills.

[fccool]

Quote:

I'm not saying that God is inflicting suffering, but that he is allowing it to continue. You supposedly have an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent deity out there who cares so much about the world that he does all these things to help it... but he neglects to help the parts of the world that are the most afflicted and abused. That's the problem with postulating a God that actively interacts with the world. If you're going to give him credit for the good things that happen in your life, you have to give him credit for not doing good things in the lives of others. I'm not saying that he caused this suffering, but that he simply allows it to continue.

It may be an insensitive thing to say, but suffering and evil are perspective of the affected or inconvenienced. For a predator to hunt down another animal and eat is a fact of nature. We can consider it evil from point of the "victim", or good from the point of the predator. In reality it just is.

This reality is quite puzzling and unexplainable for people, and it's either ignored, or explained by means of fall from the paradise.

We experience life through opposing concepts. For us to know good, there has to be evil. If everything is good, or if everything is evil, then there is no evil or good. Things exist as opposing concepts.

If there is a God and he indeed created this world, I don't see much reasons to blame Him for "evil", because evil is simply a perspective of the suffering or inconvenienced.

Iraq war is a great example. From perspective of American patriots, the war in Iraq is a war of great liberation and service. It's good. From perspective of Iraqis, it's a war of aggressive oppression, which is evil.

We don't have the bird's eye view of global perspective. Perhaps the way things are is the best possible way of these being. Any other way and things would be worse.

Quote:

why in the world is he intervening in our lives to bless us with all this stuff if he's allowing sin to run its course?

Do you see my point? It's a total double standard.

It's a concept, and there's a purpose for every concept. Complaining about double-standards of God is like complaining about double-standards of "love". There are quite a bit of double-standards in love concept. People only love when everything is ok. When things go south they stop loving and begin fighting.

We can spend our life pointing finders, like little kids as to why there are double-standards that our parents set up. Or we can do something to remedy the situation, and be mature enough to recognize the things that we don't really need, or help other with things that they do.

Can we really point out the double-standard of concept of God and his inability to stop suffering, while we do very little to stop suffering ourselves? What good is it?

[Igakusei]

Can we really point out the double-standard of concept of God and his inability to stop suffering, while we do very little to stop suffering ourselves? What good is it?

That's exactly the point, and that's why I take responsibility upon myself to help those who aren't as fortunate as I am. God's certainly not going to do it.

[phkrause]

That's exactly the point, and that's why I take responsibility upon myself to help those who aren't as fortunate as I am. God's certainly not going to do it.

But he is, thru you.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

That's exactly the point, and that's why I take responsibility upon myself to help those who aren't as fortunate as I am. God's certainly not going to do it.

But he is, thru you.

lol, right. Because I'm incapable of doing anything positive on my own without God moving me around like a puppet master. It must be a sick and twisted world inside your head, man.

[phkrause]

lol, right. Because I'm incapable of doing anything positive on my own without God moving me around like a puppet master. It must be a sick and twisted world inside your head, man.

If you want to look at it that way, that's up to you. when I read the Bible and Jesus asks us to do unto others as we'd like done to us, that's what I try to do. Has nothing to do with being a puppet. I guess than in that same thought I could say that those that do evil are puppets of Satan. But we all have a choice, we either do good or we do evil.

[Igakusei]

Right, well I do good things because I want to make the world a better place, not because some random anthropogenic deity supposedly wants me to.

I don't particularly want to take personal credit for my charity because I think it's something that everyone should consider a normal thing to do, but I certainly object to the idea of your god getting credit for inspiring me to do it. Charity is one of the pillars of Islam, but I'm not giving Allah any credit, either.

[phkrause]

Right, well I do good things because I want to make the world a better place, not because some random anthropogenic deity supposedly wants me to.

I don't particularly want to take personal credit for my charity because I think it's something that everyone should consider a normal thing to do, but I certainly object to the idea of your god getting credit for inspiring me to do it. Charity is one of the pillars of Islam, but I'm not giving Allah any credit, either.

I hear you, don't necessarily agree with you about God. And Charity is also a pillar of Christianity. And I don't do charity to get up the rung higher than the next person. I do what I can because I love God. As the Bible says love your neighbor as yourself. I like that.

[Igakusei]

Love your neighbor as yourself, unless they're black gay (edited to keep up with the times).

That may not be fair, since I don't know you very well, but in my experience Christian charity almost always comes with strings attached. As soon as you demonstrate that you're not receptive to their theology (won't come to church, won't stop doing drugs, etc), the charity dries right up.

Kinda takes the charity out of charity and turns it into bribes, in my opinion.

[Woody]

Love your neighbor as yourself, unless they're black gay (edited to keep up with the times).

I'm thankful you're keeping up with the times.

[phkrause]

Love your neighbor as yourself, unless they're black gay (edited to keep up with the times).

I believe in the Bible and in my book, neighbor refers to anyone that's in your procsymity(sp) (I'm very bad at spelling LOL).

[Dr. Shane]

I stopped thanking God for giving me stuff when I realized that giving God credit for all of the blessings I enjoy required giving him credit for doing absolutely nothing for kids like this:

Some people find joy in raining on another's parade.

That is not the kind of person I am. Dare I be thankful for that?