Banning Gay Marriage

[Igakusei]

In February this year, the Republican-controlled Iowa House of Representatives voted 62-37 to ban not only same-sex marriage, but also civil unions and domestic partnerships. It is doubtful that it will get past the senate, but time will tell. I ran across videos of two young men who spoke before the vote, one testifying for the resolution and the other against. Make sure you watch them both.

For:

[Gibs]

Whether the laws of the land may not condemn it it is easy to see God does and the Spirit of God if they haven't grieved Him away condemns them and they know it. It they have grieved Him away and no doubt in most cases like Paul says before the law came I was alive, yes they are alive but will die in their sin.

Igakusei, I like your statement, "It's Biblical cherry picking at it's finest", for sure to the road of eternal destruction.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Igakusei]

Whether the laws of the land may not condemn it it is easy to see God does and the Spirit of God if they haven't grieved Him away condemns them and they know it. It they have grieved Him away and no doubt in most cases like Paul says before the law came I was alive, yes they are alive but will die in their sin.

Igakusei, I like your statement, "It's Biblical cherry picking at it's finest", for sure to the road of eternal destruction.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

What seems obvious to you is not obvious to others. But this disagreement does not trouble you, since everyone who disagrees with you clearly must have "grieved the Spirit of God" away and thus cannot and will not understand God's will. This attitude is absurd and does nothing but prevent rational discussion and mutual understanding and growth.

Could you explain how taking Lev 18 literally while ignoring the better parts of Lev 17 and 19 does not qualify as arbitrary cherry picking? Further, you live in a society of more than 330 million people, with about as many different understandings of God. Why do you think that your beliefs need to be imposed on everyone else? Would you appreciate it if a muslim majority in your state developed and started imposing Sharia law on everyone? If you don't think gay marriage is compatible with God's plan, then don't marry someone of your gender. It should be that simple.

[ClubV12]

Maybe we'll get lucky and the Federal Government will follow Iowa's lead?

The bible does not sanction gay marriage or cohabitation so Iowa got it right. Of course there will be plenty of folks who disagree with that, which is why the road is narrow and "straight" and few there be that find it.

[Gibs]

Igakusei,

What I am saying is, when the Holy Spirit is grieved away there is no more condemnation of sin. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. He also convicts of the truth when one has truly arrived and seals us and settles us into the truth.

The Holy Spirit strives with us a long, long time and there is none but what don't feel His tugging to realize the sin and repent and be forgiven and be saved. We know what sin is from His Word and fornication is one of those set out in the law of true love, transcript of His character, that must be heeded. transgression of that law is sin.

We wouldn't know what sin is except for the law. When we become converted it abides in our heart same as His. We must have the will to do His Will and it no longer is galling.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Leviticus 18:22 applies because it is a top-tier sin, an "abomination".

Anything that is an abomination carries over into the New Testament, which is precisely why Paul quoted from Leviticus numerous times.

Romans 1 is clearly derived from Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Lev. 20:13)

Notice that the homosexual practice is the only that stresses them as an "abomination" out of the entire chapter of Leviticus 18, and the entire chapter of Leviticus 20.

Yes, it is true that chapter 18:26-30 stresses that all those things listed are "abominable" or "abominations", but.... verse 18:22 and 20:13 emphasize, and stress just how high of an abomination it is by attaching the word "abomination" specifically to those texts, along with the death penalty.

There are clearly defined hermeneutical laws of how to judge what carries over into the NT and what does not. Dr. Robert Gagnon, Ph.D. is an expert in this field in regards to knowing how to determine what laws from the Old Testament apply to the NT, and he does a profound job at showing how Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 fall into that category.

That second testimony was painful to watch. Nobody has denied that there may be some children who end up growing normal with gay parents. But what about statistics? I bet he is not even willing to consider that he may be among a very small percentage? Has he considered the negative impact overall on society?

[Igakusei]

What I am saying is, when the Holy Spirit is grieved away there is no more condemnation of sin. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. He also convicts of the truth when one has truly arrived and seals us and settles us into the truth.

The Holy Spirit strives with us a long, long time and there is none but what don't feel His tugging to realize the sin and repent and be forgiven and be saved. We know what sin is from His Word and fornication is one of those set out in the law of true love, transcript of His character, that must be heeded. transgression of that law is sin.

This is demonstrably false. There are hundreds of millions of Christians in this country alone, many of whom are fundamentally good people who regularly attend Church and study their Bibles regularly. Most of these will respond "guidance from the Holy Spirit" when you ask them how they know they arrive at the correct conclusions, Yet we still have tens of thousands of denominations who cannot agree on some of the most basic doctrines of Christianity. And these aren't just meaningless differences, many of these are salvational issues such as homosexuality, Sabbath-keeping, the balance of works vs. grace, etc.

If God really did guide us as you say, then anyone who studied the Bible with an honest and open desire to discover God's plan would begin to converge on the same fundamental beliefs. This is exactly the opposite of what we see. What we see is an endless progression of religious splintering, where people discover some "deeper truth," and are ostracized by their communities for heresy and driven to found new denominations so that they may worship the way they are convicted they should. Do you think people like Desmond Ford are actively trying to subvert understanding of the word of God because they just want to live however they want to? No, any time spent with them makes it abundantly clear that they honestly believe that they are following God's plan, and still want nothing more than to continue doing so to the best of their ability. The God you believe in would not leave these people in darkness, and quite clearly the things that are so obvious to you are not obvious to them. If they were, you'd both be on the same page along with every other person in the world who honestly wants to discover God's plan and live a good life.

What we see are things like gay teens who want nothing more in the world than to not be gay being driven from their families, ostracized and bullied at school, and occasionally even driven to suicide because of the beliefs of some early iron-age hill people.

[Lysimachus]

What we see are things like gay teens who want nothing more in the world than to not be gay being driven from their families, ostracized and bullied at school, and occasionally even driven to suicide because of the beliefs of some early iron-age hill people.

You see this a lot in the media, yes. But the media is a big fat sinking lie. They are deceptive statistics, because there are equally, if not more, heterosexual children being bullied by other heterosexual children is well. Oh, but if the one bullied happened to be a homosexual, suddenly the media flashes on and stereotypes the incident as occurring simply because the person was gay.

Yes, it is true that God is ashamed of those who have mistreated homosexuals. Such people will have to render an account. But that does not make homosexuality right, just because they were mistreated. What we need to learn is how to help gays spiritually in their walk, and help them see that only through the power of Christ is it possible to change. They need encouragement, and this can be done the right way.

[Igakusei]

You see this a lot in the media, yes. But the media is a big fat sinking lie. They are deceptive statistics, because there are equally, if not more, heterosexual children being bullied by other heterosexual children is well. Oh, but if the one bullied happened to be a homosexual, suddenly the media flashes on and stereotypes the incident as occurring simply because the person was gay.

[Lysimachus]

Before I proceed, I need to know exactly where you are coming from Igakusei.

Do you believe, in any way shape or form, that God endorses homosexual practices? In other words, do you believe it is okay to perform sex between two committed gay men or women? Or do you believe the Bible it is sin?

[Lysimachus]

Nobody is saying it is a sin to have a wrong attraction. What is sin is giving into wrong feelings.

[Igakusei]

Before I proceed, I need to know exactly where you are coming from Igakusei.

Do you believe, in any way shape or form, that God endorses homosexual practices? In other words, do you believe it is okay to perform sex between two committed gay men or women? Or do you believe the Bible it is sin?

"Do you believe the Bible" is a vague and meaningless question to begin with, as it does nothing to address the historical context in which it was written. Whether I believe it is inspired or not, people who claim despite all evidence and reason to the contrary that it is God's perfect word and a complete and infallible guide to life and morality without regard to time, context, or culture are on the wrong side of history.

The only reason society views homosexual practice as inferior or less normal than heterosexual practice is that heterosexual couples happen to be biologically capable of reproducing. Love is love, regardless of the genders of those involved. The pain and anger caused by religious dogma over this issue FAR outweighs any potential consequences of not discriminating against same-sex couples.

Finally, why must you impose your bigoted theocratic views on the rest of society? As I asked earlier, how would you feel about Muslims imposing Sharia law on you? I daresay that many of them are just as convinced as you are that they have the direct line to God and you're the one with the corrupted religion. The only way to have a stable cosmopolitan society is to either find ways to accept each other's differences or forcefully eliminate the behaviors of those who disagree with you. I don't know about you, but I prefer to live in the former society. That's why, despite being straight, I fully support gay marriage.

[phkrause]

So lets say that the Bible is wrong and that accepting the homosexual lifestyle is OK, and as the years go by eventually everyone becomes homosexual and lesbian! I guess that will take care of the population problem, because there will be no more babies being born now will there??????? So when the Bible says that a man will leave his family and become one with a woman, that doesn't mean anything? I think there's a reason that God instituted marriage, He was interested in populating the earth. And than when God started a Nation of people when he called Abraham, and eventually brought them out of bondage and told them or I should say he set up health laws and other things. Told them not to imatate the nations around them, and one of those things was homosexual acts and also prostitution, etc. Why is it so hard to see that that lifestyle is wrong? Per the Bible and for society in general. Personally it doesn't matter if they allow gay marriage or not. People should be allowed to choose for themselves and not have the government or anyone else tell them what to do. There is no more morality in this world anymore.

[Windsor]

Igakusei,

Paul mentions specifically who will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In that list, he mentions homosexual offenders, not those who shave their beard the wrong way.

[olger]

Windsor's gotta point !!

[M. T. Cross]

If the state or federal Government bans it due to what the Bible says on the issue that is horribly wrong. Seperation of Church and State are vital IMO.

As for the moral issue of Gay people getting married or even living a gay lifestyle I am just not gonna get into it cause I have run around this circle to many times.

[Lysimachus]

I meant, "do you believe the Bible teaches it is sin?"

Sorry, was a typo.

[Igakusei]

So lets say that the Bible is wrong and that accepting the homosexual lifestyle is OK, and as the years go by eventually everyone becomes homosexual and lesbian! I guess that will take care of the population problem, because there will be no more babies being born now will there??????? So when the Bible says that a man will leave his family and become one with a woman, that doesn't mean anything? I think there's a reason that God instituted marriage, He was interested in populating the earth. And than when God started a Nation of people when he called Abraham, and eventually brought them out of bondage and told them or I should say he set up health laws and other things. Told them not to imatate the nations around them, and one of those things was homosexual acts and also prostitution, etc. Why is it so hard to see that that lifestyle is wrong? Per the Bible and for society in general. Personally it doesn't matter if they allow gay marriage or not. People should be allowed to choose for themselves and not have the government or anyone else tell them what to do. There is no more morality in this world anymore.

Do you really think that everyone will become gay if we make it legal? What is so immoral about homosexuality? Who is more moral, the child who won't deny himself for the sake of an outdated and irrational belief system, or the parent who condemns his own children over their sexual preference? I know a number of gay people who are happy, adjusted, successful functioning members of society. As far as I can tell, the immoral people are the ones discriminating against them because of who they choose to have consensual adult sex with. Honestly, I don't see why Christians are so obsessed with the sex lives of other people.

[BobRyan]

In February this year, the Republican-controlled Iowa House of Representatives voted 62-37 to ban not only same-sex marriage, but also civil unions and domestic partnerships. ...It's always funny and a little sad to see people quote Leviticus 18 with so much gusto.

Thank you for sharing the atheist POV on that current event.

I believe you have represented that group very accurately in that post.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

If the state or federal Government bans it due to what the Bible says on the issue that is horribly wrong. Seperation of Church and State are vital IMO.

Separation of Church and state does not require that we allow slavery, or homosexuality, or bestiality, or abortion. In fact Separation of Church and state would even allow us to vote in favor of a constitutional amendment against the sale of alcohol.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

If 98% of the church (Christian church) agrees that homosexuality is a good thing will that make it ok?

ah...

gcw

[Igakusei]

Igakusei,

Paul mentions specifically who will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In that list, he mentions homosexual offenders, not those who shave their beard the wrong way.

Are you referring to Romans 1:28, where Paul implies that the "natural use" (KJV) of women is as sex objects for men? NASB is even better, where it gets translated as "natural function."

But either way I'm not really going to try to defend homosexuality from the Bible, as I don't see why it should have any more authority over our actions than any other first-century religious document. I'm open to discussions about the harm open homosexuality has on society since that's something that can be studied and potentially quantified, but I'm not going to agree that the United States government should codify bigotry into law just because it says something in your holy book. Again, you would probably object to Sharia law being codified into law for very similar reasons. If you don't want someone else's religious restrictions imposed on you, don't impose your religious restrictions on others. I think Jesus would even agree with that.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

If the state or federal Government bans it due to what the Bible says on the issue that is horribly wrong. Seperation of Church and State are vital IMO.

Separation of Church and state does not require that we allow slavery, or homosexuality, or bestiality, or abortion. In fact Separation of Church and state would even allow us to vote in favor of a constitutional amendment against the sale of alcohol.

in Christ,

Bob

You are correct. Our laws concerning bestiality, abortion, and slavery were not derived from the Bible. The Bible actually provides significant support for slavery, and institutionalized slavery held out longest in the developed world in the most Protestant part of it (the American South), largely due to this reason.

So back to the anti-establishment clause, if you're going to come up with reasons why homosexual marriage should be banned, you're going to have to come up with sound extra-biblical reasons for it.

[olger]

Likely it was 1 Cor. 6:9 -- but I better not put words in his mouth.

[Igakusei]

Likely it was 1 Cor. 6:9 -- but I better not put words in his mouth.

Right, I forgot about that one. This god of yours really seems to care a lot about sex.