And some people wonder why____

[LifeHiscost]

_____others want to get out of this world.

Quote:

Afghan president pardons imprisoned rape victim

By DEB RIECHMANN | AP – 3 hrs ago

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KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday pardoned an Afghan woman serving a 12-year prison sentence for having sex out of wedlock after she was raped by a relative.

Karzai's office said in a statement that the woman and her attacker have agreed to marry. That would reverse an earlier decision by the 19-year-old woman, who had previously refused a judge's offer of freedom if she agreed to marry the rapist.

Her plight was highlighted in a documentary that the European Union blocked because it feared the women featured in the film would be in danger if it were shown.

More than 5,000 people recently signed a petition urging Karzai to release the woman. She had the man's child while in prison and raised her daughter behind bars, which is common among women imprisoned in Afghanistan.

A statement released by Karzai's office says that after hearing from judicial officials, the decision was made to forgive the rest of the sentence she received for having sex out of wedlock, a crime in Afghanistan. The presidential statement did not say when the woman was to be released or how much prison time had been pardoned.

The woman told The Associated Press in an interview last month that she had hoped that attention generated by the EU film might help her get released. With the film blocked, she said that she was losing hope and considering marrying her rapist as a way out. She said her attacker was pressuring her to stop giving interviews.

About half of the 300 to 400 women jailed in Afghanistan are imprisoned for so-called "moral crimes" such as sex outside marriage, or running away from their husbands, according to reports by the United Nations and research organizations. Fleeing husbands isn't considered a crime in Afghanistan.

The EU welcomed the woman's release.

"Her case has served to highlight the plight of Afghan women, who 10 years after the overthrow of the Taliban regime often continue to suffer in unimaginable conditions, deprived of even the most basic human rights," the European Union's Ambassador and Special Representative to Afghanistan, Vygaudas Usackas, said.

He said the EU hoped the same mercy would be extended to other women serving similar terms. Usackas said he planned to raise the issue of Afghan women's rights at an international conference on Afghanistan Dec. 5 in Bonn, Germany.

Some of the most severe restrictions women faced under the Taliban, like a ban on attending schools and having to have a male escort to venture outside the home, were done away with when the radical Islamic movement was driven from power in 2001. But Afghanistan remains a deeply conservative and male-dominated society, meaning women are still sold to husbands and rights enshrined in law are often ignored in practice.

He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 12:25 NKJV

"Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Luke 21:27

God blesses!

[Bravus]

Of course, the Bible prescribes exactly the same thing: a raped woman must marry her rapist.

[LifeHiscost]

Of course, the Bible prescribes exactly the same thing: a raped woman must marry her rapist.

God blesses!

[olger]

[Bravus]

Deuteronomy 22:

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

[Bravus]

I'm not trying to be awkward or 'anti', by the way.

Just this: http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=2300

[Igakusei]

The most frustrating part of this story is that if she had NOT agreed to marry him, upon finishing her sentence and being released from prison she would have almost certainly been murdered by her own family for the shame she brought upon them.

Even in our culture, there's often a subtle (and sometimes blatant) undertone that it's the girl's fault she was raped because of ___________. While it's true that there are things women can do to protect themselves, it's an attitude that often leaves people unsympathetic towards rape victims, who they view as attention seekers more than victims.

Here's a picture that humorously points out the discrepancy.

[phkrause]

The most frustrating part of this story is that if she had NOT agreed to marry him, upon finishing her sentence and being released from prison she would have almost certainly been murdered by her own family for the shame she brought upon them.

Even in our culture, there's often a subtle (and sometimes blatant) undertone that it's the girl's fault she was raped because of ___________. While it's true that there are things women can do to protect themselves, it's an attitude that often leaves people unsympathetic towards rape victims, who they view as attention seekers more than victims.

Here's a picture that humorously points out the discrepancy.

Sadly I agree on all points. Interesting link.

[LifeHiscost]

God blesses!

[joeb]

Deuteronomy 22:

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Let's put a little context to this. The surrounding verses show Bravus' slant on this to not be true.

23 ¶If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 ¶But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:*n3

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

28 ¶If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

[Igakusei]

So it ends better for the woman if she's engaged (unless she's in the city!), but aside from that I fail to see how the wider context of the chapter changes anything.

[ClubV12]

Thanks Joeb for making the context clearer.

Now as it concerns the Afghan women in prison, she was left alone in her house while the house hold members went on a trip. Seems to me, if I recall the story correctly, the man involved was some kind of relative. So, she was in "town" and she did NOT "cry out", for several months, she told no one. Perhaps she was afraid for her life if she cried out? I dunno why she didn't. But she had no choice when it was obvious she was pregnant. Which would be unlikely with a single encounter, by the way.

Lets say this event happened during the times of Deuteronomy. Do the biblical rules for dealing with this event apply? In town, didn't cry out, kill them both? You have to understand the context of the times they were living in. Justice was swift and brutal, there were no courts or prisons. "Court" was at the city gate, justice was served immediately, there was no appeal process. The Israelites were surrounded by war like tribes that wouldn't hesitate to burn your city, take your women, kill the children. Rape was common, slavery rampant. Life was beyond "brutal", and this was all the Israelites had known for some 400 years. You can't apply the modern Judeo Christian values to this scenario, you have to think like an Israelite in that time.

By the way, the woman was imprisoned NOT for being raped, but for NOT CRYING OUT until months AFTER the event(s). From Deuteronomy's view point, she got off easy....

Of course the Israelite laws didn't apply to a foreign country/tribe on their borders in that time. I have no idea how these various godless countries/tribes would have handled it then as opposed to now. They didn't have "prison" in those days.

Of course we are left aghast at these events, because we are modern and civilized. The Afghans? Not so much, more like they were a few thousand years ago. Most can't read, no education. Did you know, the MEN frequently have sex with one another!!! Not kidding. It is an "abomination" to be with a woman your not married to, so "rape" or extra marital affair, etc. is very very serious. The Afghan men are NOT gay as we think of it, it's just what guys do over there. Without giving it a lot of thought as to the moral implications of being with a man. They would be aghast at your suggestion they lay with a woman, which is unthinkable! Our military actually tries to address this very problem with the local population. As in disease prevention and the whole concept of laying with a man.

Spartan was the same way, by the way, the Spartan soldiers as "manly" as they were, were encouraged to take a fellow soldier as a lover. You will fight much harder for your "loved one" than for your country!

[M. T. Cross]

In Nordic countries they would have just killed the dude. Like he deserved. Viking justice was pretty just.

There is no way any woman or victem of sexual assault EVER should be punished for rape. Whether she says something at the time, six months later or never. The trauma of rape affects every victem in a different way.

[monty]

Alot of options this woman has in that culture! It appears she was already being treated like a second wife by this married "relative". She speaks out and she may be blamed, killed, imprisioned, or forced to be a second wife to this supreme jerk. Gee, why didn't she just come out in the open about it and tell everyone for support. :(

[Igakusei]

Alot of options this woman has in that culture! It appears she was already being treated like a second wife by this married "relative". She speaks out and she may be blamed, killed, imprisioned, or forced to be a second wife to this supreme jerk. Gee, why didn't she just come out in the open about it and tell everyone for support.

Because then her own family would kill her for bringing shame on them.

[monty]

I was being facetious.....but I get your point!

[ClubV12]

I think that right there may be a profound difference in the ways of the Israelites of their time and the Nations surrounding them. Then AND today.

I think it would be the "law" was such that in Israel there would have been no reproach for this woman had she "cried out". But I can understand and sympathize with her plight in Afghanistan where "crying out" could have catastrophic results. In such a case, your literally damed in you do and damed if you don't!

It's interesting to consider the aspects of the laws of Israel in comparison to the heathen nations. It was the responsibility of the Jews to bring this good news to the nations of the world. Not just a coming Messiah, but a better way to live, to rule, better laws all around, right then, right there, for that time and into the future. But they pretty much blew the whole thing....

[Bravus]

Again, if a woman is raped out in the country, she is forced to marry her rapist. If she is raped in the city but he puts a hand over her mouth, or threatens her with death if she cries out, she is killed.

How is this better?

Again, I'm simply pointing out that before we look out of the tent with disdain we'd better know and have come to terms with what's inside the tent.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Deuteronomy 22:

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Let's put a little context to this. The surrounding verses show Bravus' slant on this to not be true.

23 ¶If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 ¶But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:*n3

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

28 ¶If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Forsooth.

[ClubV12]

Concerning the ISRAELITES and THEIR law (Deuteronomy) it would be of prime importance for the woman to not necessarily literally "cry out", but to make known the circumstances right away. So the facts considered at the "gate" could be ascertained while everything was still fresh. Waiting for months before saying anything would not be "crying out", she's done, it's over, she sealed her fate by keeping quiet.

Now concerning the Afghan's, in the same time frame as Deuteronomy, their on their own. They didn't have God's law as a guideline. Didn't have it then, don't have it now, it looks real bad for the women no matter how it goes down. Man's law aint so great compared to God's law.

Israelite law, clearly superior. Woman (vigin) in the wilderness? The facts cannot be clearly established, arranged marriages were the order of the day, it's a bummer, but it's sure better than what the Afghans had in mind. Infinitely better than stoning!

[Bravus]

Forsooth? Not at all. How is my 'slant' on it not true? I spoke about the specific situation of rape in the country, and what I said was exactly what the text says.

Check my sig as required.

[monty]

We want perfect justice (as we see it). Ever since sin entered justice has been less than perfect. "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of thy throne...Ps 89:14" People seem to get away with crime, and they do. Only a perfect God will execute perfect justice. How? We only imperfectly understand it. The quoted texts are full of loopholes, what if the virgin is not betrothed, what if the woman is not a virgin....married, divorced, widowed? What makes the woman only worth 50 shekels? What if everyone in the city is at the baseball game and she does "cry out" and no one hears her, the man has nothing to lose by saying she was quiet and co-operatve because he is going to die anyway! What a great life for the "humbled" woman as she gets to live with him a lifetime and "he may not put her away all his days". Oh look there in the second pew......Isn't that the ......... you know he raped her and they now have to live as man and wife for the rest of their lives....Different culture, different time, imperfect justice at it's best!

[ClubV12]

"Again, if a woman is raped out in the country, she is forced to marry her rapist. If she is raped in the city but he puts a hand over her mouth, or threatens her with death if she cries out, she is killed."

It's not entirely accurate on several levels, as I pointed out earlier. The woman in TOWN does not have to literally cry out, she needs to bring it to the attention of the leaders right away. Detail what just happened. IF she waits to long, as the Afghan woman did, she did NOT "cry out". In Israels time the sentence was death for not crying out, today in Afghan, it's 12 years in prison.

The woman in the field IF she is a virgin, spares the life of the man AND the woman, they enter into an arranged marriage. Arranged marriages still happen today in many countries. Not everybody is happy about the arrangement, but it's got "death" beat by a long shot!

The woman in the field, IF she is already in an arranged marriage situation the rapist is put to death, she goes on with her marriage. Now thats a LOT more fair than what we see in Afghanistan today!