Can an independent ministry "impersonate the SDA Church"?

[Alchemy]

Can an independent ministry "impersonate the SDA Church"?

I have heard this and I'm not sure what the implication is. Can an independent ministry impersonate the SDA Church?

[Gibs]

For me God's true church don't have a corporate or copyrighted name but I've never heard of a dissenting ministry letting on to be a voice of todays SDA structure. That would not make sense to me, but we have all kinds out there so it is possible.

Maybe someone is saying they are of the TRUE SDA church and not the apostate structure that claims to be.

He called His, "ekklesia", meaning the called out ones and that to me is still His True church. It is translated "church" and that one is the only one, all the rest with a denominational name have a separate name because they are a structure of their, men's, building which at first many true ones were with but as apostasy comes in they heed the continuing call to come out. SDAdventism was by far the best of the reform movements to come on after the dark ages.

And now it can be rightly seen,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Can an independent ministry "impersonate the SDA Church"?

I have heard this and I'm not sure what the implication is. Can an independent ministry impersonate the SDA Church?

Anything can be impersonated, even Jesus' return will be, by Satan himself. That's why it says in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; Notice it says in the air! From what I understand Satan will claim to be Christ and be walking on the earth, if I'm not mistaken.

[Stan]

There are Churches that are impersonating the Seventh-day Adventist Church. AND there are a couple of schools as well.

[Dr. Rich]

What do you mean by impersonating? Keep all of the commandments and hold fast to the words of Jesus as found in Rev. 12:17?

[Stan]

No, if people put up a sign on a Church that says it is a Seventh-day Adventist Church and is not one. Members expect the Church to be one.

I have no problem with folks starting their own Church None at all.

An example of this is 3ABN (they are doing it right) you will not see on their website that they are a Adventist organization, as they are not. They are very active with the message, but when people give, they are not giving to the Adventist Church.

[Alchemy]

No, if people put up a sign on a Church that says it is a Seventh-day Adventist Church and is not one. Members expect the Church to be one.

I have no problem with folks starting their own Church None at all.

An example of this is 3ABN (they are doing it right) you will not see on their website that they are a Adventist organization, as they are not. They are very active with the message, but when people give, they are not giving to the Adventist Church.

I agree with 3ABN doing it right.

I guess my concern is this; There was a little church of less than ten adventists who started putting up billboards to promote what we believe. (They may have been ex-adventists, I'm not sure) I know the words Seventh-day Adventist was in the name, and well, the GC took them to court to make them stop using the name Seventh-day Adventist.

Is this really a problem? I hope we didn't incorporate for this!?!

[Dr. Rich]

That's not impersonating--that's false advertising. I was involved in the startup with 3ABN and told them that they must be an independent ministry in order that they would not have a conflict with the GC. But, it is true that the GC became very very upset when they found out they could not control 3ABN. Same can be said of my sister's ministry.

[fccool]

They can, but they will be sued :)

[Dr. Rich]

They can, but they will be sued

for what? If the ministries are not incorporated and are private and therefore not in commerce (a business), then even IF they are sued, they will win. Why? Because a true ministry set up correctly (by me) does not fall under the jurisdiction of any Article III courts (judicial branch) and does not belong to anyone other than God--and who is going or can sue God? Huh? Read the 1st Amendment, the first right of the bill of rights.

[fccool]

1st Amendment does not cover the trademark and copyright violations. Already happened many times. Use the name "Seventh Day Adventist" in your ministry, which is not associated with GC, and if GC does not like it, it has grounds to sue you and stop you from using the name.

[Stan]

it can be associated with a local Church.

[Dr. Rich]

I have right beside me, a copy of the creation of a true ministry (not a 501©3) I did for a group called "SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHRISTIAN MINISTRY" and the GC can't do a darn thing about it. Why? Because it is the "otherwise" in common law to which NO statute law applies to it. Yes, there is a difference between "law" and statutes, rules, regulations and codes. Many places found in the Old and New Testament you will see that there were clear differences between the commandments (covenant), statutes, codes, rules and regulations. The same thing applies today. While some things are "lawful" they may not be "legal". Lawful is de-jure and Legal is de-facto.

It is perfectly lawful to get in your car and speed up and down the street in front of your house, without stopping for any stop signs or red light--IF you never hurt or interfere with anyone! On the otherhand, it is not legal to do so because you have a contract (licence) and have agreed to those conditions on the contract (statutes and codes) in order to drive THEIR car (not yours by the way) on their streets-it being a commercial activity. I should know--as I never had a license for over 20 years and they never had jurisdiction over me and everytime I got stopped they had to always dismiss the false charges. (I now have a commercial license as I was a coach to our Academy and had to drive kids to the games)

Does the dress code at your local Catholic school apply to everyone? NO! Well, neither does man made laws called statutes, regulations, rules and codes! Therefore, a private contract ministry that is not goverened/controlled by statutes and is therefore not in commerce, is untouchable by corporations who are in commerce such as the commercial business called "SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH", it being a corporation bound by those same statutes! (That's enough for now)

[TreeOfLife]

:)

Lascivious, that is, Licentious Acts of the GC SDA Corp.

No, if people put up a sign on a Church that says it is a Seventh-day Adventist Church and is not one. Members expect the Church to be one.

I have no problem with folks starting their own Church None at all.

An example of this is 3ABN (they are doing it right) you will not see on their website that they are a Adventist organization, as they are not. They are very active with the message, but when people give, they are not giving to the Adventist Church.

Thanks Stan!

I appreciate what you are saying, but...

I have been using, for years now, various names that are properly copyrighted. There is nothing wrong with that. Even so I recognize that there are others, even thousands, that are lawfully using names that are perfect lookalikes of those names of mine. None of those thousands can be lawfully accused of copyright infringement upon my lawful claims!

Not until someone begin using my name for the purpose of using or abusing property belonging to me can there be any truth to any accusation of copyright infringement!

Now, perhaps someone may claim that my name or the information provided in a book of mine is intellectual property that is being covered by my copyright claims. This could be true, but isn't necessarily so. If and when, and to the extent that, said information is nothing less than the truth of God, the Creator of the Universe, it belongs to Him alone, and none among mere men, and certainly no Government authority created by mere men, do have a lawful right to lay claims upon it...

Likewise for the name Seventh-day Adventist, and, as well, for the name Seventh-day Adventist Church. Those names are names describing certain true realities of any and all such as do wish to apply those names upon themselves and for each their own church. That is, whether or not such a church is organized under the auspices of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in Washington D.C..

If such a church is claiming the right of using and preaching the truths of God being taught in the works of Ellen Gould White, well, there can be nothing unlawful in that. Those truths belong to God, and for GC SDA Corp. to claim those truths, or even those writings of Ellen G. White, for themselves and for their own exclusive use, well that, if anything, is an unlawful, even criminal, claim!

Unfortunately, each and anyone that keeps on providing of their God given powers in support of such criminal claims and "legal" actions do make themselves part responsible for such criminal actions...

Let me quote also out of Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.:

"Lawful... The principal distinction between the terms "lawful" and "legal" is that the former contemplates the substance of law, the latter the form of law. To say of an act... that it is "legal" implies that it is done or performed in accordance with the forms and usages of law, or in a technical manner... Further, the word "lawful" more clearly implies an ethical content than does "legal." The latter goes no further than to denote compliance, with positive, technical, or formal rules; while the former usually imports a moral substance or ethical permissibility..."

In effect then, by taking licence to exclude others from using the Seventh-day Adventist name and/or the works and/or books of Ellen White, the GC SDA Corp. is involving itself heavily in nothing less than that which is being described by the word 'lasciviousness,' that is, ' licentiousness,' (cf. Strong's G766!) as that word is being used by Jesus, Paul, Peter, and Jude in the New Testament. Cf. Mark 7:22; 2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19; Eph 4:19; 1 Peter 4:3; Jude 1:4.

Well, do I need to say more?

What is the message of that powerful angel of Revelation 18:4?

Consider it! Selah!

[ClubV12]

There is no reason to suggest that the G.C. had a problem with 3ABN because they could not "control them". Such a suggestion is inflamatory.

There are a LOT of "self supporting" Ministries that are independant of but work closely with the Seventh-day Adventist church. Sister White referred to these as "working along irregular lines". Her own son did such work, independant of the G.C. or any conference.

There is a distince difference between self supporting workers that support the church and any group (two, three, ten, thousands, whatever number) that have broken away from the church and feel they have a "right" to the name Seventh-day Adventist. They don't have a right to a trademarked name, period. There have been more than a few cases the G.C. has taken to court and won their case. I don't have a problem with that, stealing is stealing. If your stealing a legal name from someone, don't hide behind God and use Him as an excuse, thats pathetic.

Self supporting workers, groups, legal entities generally attend an official Seventh-day Adventist church and are generally members of that church. Like the folks at 3ABN. They are not "off shoots" or "fanatics" attempting to pass themself off as Seventh-day Adventists, they ARE Seventh-day Adventists. Supporting themselves, not taking tithe monies or salaries from the church. Good for them! I will gladly support their efforts.

[fccool]

Quote:

There is a distince difference between self supporting workers that support the church and any group (two, three, ten, thousands, whatever number) that have broken away from the church and feel they have a "right" to the name Seventh-day Adventist. They don't have a right to a trademarked name, period. There have been more than a few cases the G.C. has taken to court and won their case. I don't have a problem with that, stealing is stealing. If your stealing a legal name from someone, don't hide behind God and use Him as an excuse, thats pathetic.

I think this is rather a clever way to twist the religious freedom argument, and make it into "intellectual property" argument.

Term SDA is as much an intellectual property mark, as Muslim is an intellectual property mark. A religious group of people can't make that infringement claim. The reason that GC can, is because SDA church utilized the corporate loophole, and became a financial corporation with a trademarked word sequence, which is copyrighted.

So SDA is akin to Coca Cola, or Nike. That's what you are when you are making such claim. You are a corporate member with a logo brand for your name.

If Adventism was in fact a religious movement, it would care to preserve the distinction by religious means... the way disciple handled it in the Bible. By establishing and promoting the purity of the doctrine, and not purity of the corporate brand.

Sorry, the intellectual property argument is pretty lame. Such group would be stealing the title of SDA as much as you are "stealing" the title of mainstream Christian belief. Even Roman Catholics don't stoop down to the level of suing people over a trademark... and they are supposed to be the bad guys.

[Stan]

There are a lot of people who like to leech off of the Adventist Church. The Davidians are a good example, they take and take, use our buildings, the resources that have been provided to build a building, and the evangelism expenses WITHOUT giving anything back. Sounds harsh, but that is how I view them, am not alone, watch this video I uploaded.

http://vimeo.com/31386872

[fccool]

There are a lot of people who like to leech off of the Adventist Church. The Davidians are a good example, they take and take, use our buildings, the resources that have been provided to build a building, and the evangelism expenses WITHOUT giving anything back. Sounds harsh, but that is how I view them, am not alone, watch this video I uploaded.

I really don't have much time to watch the video, sorry. Perhaps you can explain me and the people how this issue justifies the problem of incorporated religious organization using legal loopholes to revoke the names of other organizations that disagree with SOME of its views?

[Naomi]

[Anything can be impersonated, even Jesus' return will be, by Satan himself. That's why it says in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; Notice it says in the air! From what I understand Satan will claim to be Christ and be walking on the earth, if I'm not mistaken.]

Amen! My question is, if a person or group feels the call to start their own ministry or church, why would they want to use a name already in use. Why give the appearance of being associated with the SDA church, or any other denomination?

By virtue of being a tag-a-long is, if nothing more, deceitful and should make one question the true reason for attemption to give an untruthful allusion!

[Windsor]

This topic does nothing but beat a clubadventist dead horse. There are people on here who literally believe God has audibly told them to impersonate the church. As such belief can only derive from Satan, there is no way to use logic in any discussion with them so this topic avails nothing.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Can an independent ministry "impersonate the SDA Church"?

I have heard this and I'm not sure what the implication is. Can an independent ministry impersonate the SDA Church?

Anything can be impersonated, even Jesus' return will be, by Satan himself. That's why it says in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; Notice it says in the air! From what I understand Satan will claim to be Christ and be walking on the earth, if I'm not mistaken.

Where does this say that Jesus' return will be impersonated ?

Anyone can impersonate the SDA, they can believe whatever they like, so long as they meet on the Saturday and identify with the OT more than the NT.

[fccool]

Quote:

Amen! My question is, if a person or group feels the call to start their own ministry or church, why would they want to use a name already in use. Why give the appearance of being associated with the SDA church, or any other denomination?

There are plenty of valid reasons. Once of such wouldn't even have to be a theological disagreements, but mere structural and political ones.

It does not warrant a religious organization to force state to remove certain religious identification from such group, especially if such identification is closely to related to their name.

Quote:

By virtue of being a tag-a-long is, if nothing more, deceitful and should make one question the true reason for temptation to give an untruthful allusion!

One can certainly say that Adventism is a "tag-a-long" of the prior Christian denominations, and Christianity is a "tag-a-long" of Judaism. It's not a very good argument to maintain for invoking state force and infringing on religious freedom of other people.

[Windsor]

Where does this say that Jesus' return will be impersonated ?

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:23-27

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:14

[BibleOnly]

"Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

I believe this is a specific reference to Islam and Catholicism. You think it's just a reference to one end time event where Satan appears as Jesus ?

"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. "

So, Jesus' return will be unmistakable, He said.

I see where you're coming from with the first part, but I believe He was both referring to people like David Koresh on one level, and to people who claim to be of Him, on the other. I think this has happened through the ages, not just at the end of the age.

[Windsor]

I'm not saying it only references a single false Christ. However, an ultimate false Christ could easily claim that since his return was shown all around the world on TV and the internet, then it does fit the Biblical pattern and since a large number of Christians believe in a millennium on Earth, it would fit their expectations exactly.