Confrontation or Collabortation? (Join Us for the Journey)

[Woody]

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How should Adventists relate to fellow Christians?

The following article by Martin Weber appeared in the NAD edition of Adventist World magazine, Sept. 2011.

Are non-Adventist churches our rivals or our friends when it comes to evangelism? To faithfully and effectively present the unique last-day truths entrusted to our church, need we be confrontive rather than collaborative?

Postmodern culture supremely values inclusiveness and tolerance—to a fault. Anything appearing partisan or divisive is automatically dismissed as unworthy of belief. What succeeds is a humble yet confident sense of doctrinal identity communicated in an inclusive, winsome spirit. This approach emerges: If it weren’t for fellow Christians who prepared the way, we Adventists wouldn’t exist. Join us for the rest of the journey.

I propose that we brand Seventh-day Adventism as the final chapter in a shared story; our prophetic movement is the last step in a joint journey of recovering truth that sincere Christians (including many Catholics!) have been traveling through the centuries.

But does such an approach diminish Adventism’s unique message? Not when each doctrine is framed in the context of the faith in Jesus that fellow Christians already have, as the next logical step in their discipleship journey. Unbelievers respond too.

Historically, however, Adventists have tended toward confrontational outreach. A century ago and more, Adventist evangelists often were master debaters. They arrived in town, pitched a big tent, and challenged local preachers to doctrinal debates. Quick on the draw with silver bullet proof texts, the Adventist won the spiritual showdown. He carried much of the crowd into subsequent evangelistic meetings. Before leaving town, he planted a church.

This approach, while successful in its time, left a bitter aftertaste. Churches founded on confrontation with fellow Christians were unwelcome in the community. Moreover, these congregations tended to be internally contentious, with Sabbath keepers fighting each other over nuances of doctrine, diet and assorted lifestyle issues. Many century-old churches still haven’t attained the unity for which Christ died. Contention is in their DNA, transferred from generation to generation. I know a little church that nearly split amid a nasty discussion about mushroom dishes at “fellowship” dinners.

We might learn from Ellen White. Her teaching and example admonished nineteenth-century Adventists who contended among themselves and their Sunday-keeping neighbors. In 1888, delegates convened in Minneapolis for a General Conference Session. Not surprisingly, a big debate ensued. Ellen White famously rebuked the contentious spirit—but what is less known is that while in Minneapolis she collaborated with non-Adventist Christians. She spoke at a rally of the Women’s Christian Temperance Union—fellow Christians who at that time were agitating for a national Sunday law. Obviously Ellen White didn’t agree with them about that. But she did unite with them on common ground in seeking moral reforms in American society. She became quite popular at these non-Adventist rallies—to the consternation of Sabbatarians more interested in being “peculiar people” than loving and collaborative neighbors.

Ellen White even entrusted her signature book, Steps to Christ, to non-Adventists for publication. She awarded initial printing rights to Dwight Moody’s brother in law, Fleming Revell. In writing other books, she often borrowed the language of non-Adventist authors, effectively collaborating with their teaching.

Ellen White’s approach speaks directly to our time. We too may mingle with fellow Christians regarding areas of common faith without compromising unique Seventh-day Adventist doctrine.

I finally learned this in my own pastoral ministry. Joining the non-Adventist ministerial association provided opportunities to preach at a holiday celebration. People viewing me on local Christian TV greeted me at the mall as a brother in Christ. Pastors invited me to visit their churches and pray during services. One had me mediate a dispute among his elders. I joined a community Christian music group (no great contribution there, I assure you, but I did have fun and made friends for my church). The pastor of the city’s biggest church, who previously disliked Adventists, sponsored me as a law enforcement chaplain—connecting me with people in crisis whom otherwise I could never invite to church. Fellow chaplains teased me about being a vegetarian—then wanted meatless recipes. Nobody accused Adventism of being a cult.

Meanwhile Sabbath attendance doubled. The key was collaboration with the Christian community while preserving a distinctly Adventist message and mission.

[BobRyan]

There is no question - Adventists can be as "popular" as they want to be - depending on how far down the stack they are willing to bury the distinctive doctrines of the Adventist Church.

I have never questioned that for a moment.

I also agree with getting out and visiting with - cooperating with non-SDA christians as much as possible.

But I do not agree with trying to "vision cast" as in "recast" SDA doctrine into some more likable message where the distinctives are set aside as if we "no longer believe those things". I would not wish to lead with a distinctive that might be considered offensive as an ice-breaker -- but I would be careful not to flatly deny that distinctive when questioned on it.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

I suppose one would have to define "doctrine" vs "traditions" of the church. I for 1 do not hold all traditions as sacred.

Ellen White says we should use all methods possible. And I agree with that philosophy.

[BobRyan]

Doctrine is tested sola scriptura and can be found as short summarizing statements in our 28 fundamental beliefs.

When non-SDAs ask us about our beliefs - often the attempt is made to just talk about the ones we "hold in common" with whoever happens to be asking the question. That is fine for setting the context on points where we actually agree. But to deny the voted doctrines of our church as if we do not believe them - is to mislead the questioners.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Quote:

But to deny the voted doctrines of our church as if we do not believe them - is to mislead the questioners.

Personally - I've not witness that being done. Never heard of it happening. I don't doubt that it could be done.

There can be a difference in what an individual believes and what the church doctrines are. And I would hope the individual would spell that out.

[Gibs]

The world of so called Christianity is so far off track that there is very, very little that one who is truly in Christ could collaborate with. Also in Adventism to get back to true doctine as once was would be very rasping to most. New Adventism that has developed in the last 50 yrs. is coming around to what the other churches are that is for sure. In many cases Adventism has taken in much that is in them. Reform is needed in her!

Was Jesus in collaboration with the world that claimed the true worship of God. No, they hung Him on a tree and in a some similar manner the same is to happen again to those of Him in the very end and it is closer than most see.

Collaboration with Him is the goal, collaboration with the world must not be. Confrontation is a must as He would have us to go about it. We as True followers of Him and His Word must stand true and unmoved by the world and all false teachings.

Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That MUST be the TRUE saving gospel of past sins and then from continuing in sin.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

Also in Adventism to get back to true doctine as once was would be very rasping to most.

What "true doctines" are missing from here:

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

What would you add?

Personally I find them to be accurate and complete.

[Gibs]

The True Doctrine of Salvation is missing!

All must be overcomers, the Bible teaches it and EGW did in her time and continues in her writings.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Perhaps you overlooked #10 :

"10. Experience of Salvation:

In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)"

Is there anything else that you thought was missing?

[Gibs]

That is the new age one that all the denominations have the same. Talk to the many who pulled out years ago over this. Don't you know it was the "overcomer" believers who were called out? Called out? Yes the Spirit of God and His Word called them out. This was the first and greatest riff of all and rightly so and now today in Adventism this theology is more strongly defended than in many of the others.

As a matter of fact more outside are now seeing the fact the redeemed must be overcomers.

The newer and young SDA's don't know much of this and those who do prefer the preach unto me smooth things. It has been prophecied,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Read EGW on "just believe". You got to know when that was being spoken in the Bible it was a call to the Jews, come and believe in your Messiah, He has come, Jesus Christ is He. Sure then the devils are saved huh?

People wrest Paul's writings to make out just believe and you are saved. None of the disciples taught anything close to that. All must be overcomers, Jesus expecially makes it clear in Re 2:7,11,17; 3:5,12,21;

It was known to us 35 yrs. aprox. ago as the "new theology", now it's the "new age theology". All can take it up that wants it, I do not and will not be a part of it.

Just say the word and I'll paste you a page or so of EGW's council on the subject, I have a lot here and I'm sure you been reading some.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

I take it that you've been "called out" of the Adventist church? Is that what I am reading?

[Gibs]

Woody,

The SDA church of today has become a "structure" of men's cobbling. It was a very grevious time and but there could be no getting along in it as it got so the majority were all for the new way to see salvation. There was a continual fight but the truth didn't matter, they made truth another easier way they thought. This same theology had been in the Sunday churchs for many years. But the leadership wanted to increase church membership and the Rick Warren church was so hot and his book "The Purpose Driven Life" and all were urged to get it and it sold in the ABC's big time and was a big sell on the new theology.

Then came in a host of other things and one pastor tried to sell us a book "From Frogs to Princesses", I and another Bro. stood up together and stated, "that is of the occult" simultaneously and that ended it then and there and I forget which "lab" teaching that was.

For sure, His Spirit and His Word of truth called me and many, many out. Just like the reformers found out you will not change the corrupt hierarchy. We soon found out the "overcomers" must be the "come outers".

She still advocates Sabbath and Ted Wilson sees a little of it's problem but I'm afraid it's too late.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

But the leadership wanted to increase church membership and the Rick Warren church was so hot and his book "The Purpose Driven Life" and all were urged to get it and it sold in the ABC's big time and was a big sell on the new theology.

That's interesting. I just finished reading this book again a few months ago. I failed to find any new theology in it. Just the pure and simple Gospel.

However - I would appreciate hearing your perspective on what quotes you found in the book that were new theology. How long ago did you read the book?

[Stan]

Which leadership wanted that? Can you be specific?

I was an ABC manger for 20 years, and it was NOT a best seller, it was nominal at best.

There are **some** good things in there. Have you even read that?

[BobRyan]

Quote:

But to deny the voted doctrines of our church as if we do not believe them - is to mislead the questioners.

Personally - I've not witness that being done. Never heard of it happening. I don't doubt that it could be done.

Well apart from the risk of selling out doctrines simply because they are not popular in non-SDA theology - I am all for looking for opportunities to make friends with non-SDA church members and church leaders.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Quote:

Have you even read that?

I am anxious to hear the response to this. I suspect he has only read a few out of context quotes.

So, we will see. I've asked what quotes he opposes - so soon we shall find out.

[ClubV12]

Gib's your post's in this thread seem to indicate a fairly recent change in the theology concerning salvation by the Adventist church. But in another thread you stated the Adventist church "fell" out of favor with God in 1905 (I believe that was the date you mentioned).

Personally, my belief is that church didn't "fall" in 1888, 1905, 1918, 1959 or any other date I've heard from sources as the time of "apostasy". Nor will it fall in the future.

There is no "new theology" on salvation from the churches official position, nothing has changed in that regard. It is not "missing", it is plain and evident for all who will see it. I don't know if you follow the Sabbath school lessons but this quarter has been on Galations. The law vs grace and the balance and understanding between the two. I've heard some comments in Sabbath school that uphold the law, to much. I've heard other comments that uphold grace, to much. It is a complex subject to present in a balanced way. It remains my opinion that the balance can only be found by heart that is pure. It is my opinion that only a pure heart will be able to fully grasp the significance of righteousness by faith.

There is nothing wrong with preaching that salvation is free, that all we have to do is accept it. There is nothing wrong in preaching the need for us to determine to follow the law, to make that choice to obey. Only those with a pure heart will understand how faith and works combine harmoniously. The devil doesn't care which side of the road you end up on, as long as your in the ditch.

When I hear from members of other churches about how salvation is "all" about grace, I can agree with that, I don't have a problem with it. It's fundamentally true! That being the case, where are the "works" that will follow as a result. THAT is the question!

[Woody]

Excellent Post Club

[Gibs]

Woody,

A line in your signature tells me a lot,"may we bo one that the world may be won".

One in what? One with who? The whole Christian world is in apostasy, new age theology and the occult and spirtualism in them all.

To amount to a "hill of beans" we must be "one" in Jeuss Christ and His word. In the "new theology" of salvation none will be one in Jesus Christ and that is what putting on the Divine Nature or Christ in you is. Our will surrendered to do only His Will and submerged together, one in Him and then overcoming as He did is the very thing you treasure in doing. It has become our pleasure and our new born love. To just believe will not accomplish that role. A total death of the old man, self must be killed, a full and unconditional surrender of every last thing and our will 100 % to do His will, one then in Jesus and the Father.

Then to overcome sin and be a coveted overcomer,

Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Now with Rick Warren, No! to one with him and his goal. Did you know that he and Richard Land ( a popular new age preacher ) and Henry Kissinger were appointed to head up and to bring about the one world religion? His book and his thrust is all in the direction he is dedicated to go and do by his master. One of the first they met with was the pope and got his blessing. What? A blessing from hell!

Satan is a very slippery and cunning foe and he has almost the whole world caught up in his web of deceit and they don't know it.

ClubV12, Salvation is free and easy but you must get it HIS WAY. He has made the way for you to obtain it. Ah yes there is that hard thing you don't want to do, die of self and the world and all that you cherish in it but if you will have Him in you it must be done. Is that works to die of the old man and fully and totally surrender all, every last bit to Him. It isn't to me, it was my pleasure. It's for each of us to choose what and who is our one and only master, that is why 100 % surrender must be made. You are not accepted 99.99999999 %, IT MUST BE 100 %.

The works that follow after He dwells within is the subject finds the thing required of him has become his pleasure, where before it was repulsive and put away to not do.

Many who have come out of SDAdventism will tell you she has already fallen, for me she has fallen enough I had to come out. She still upholds the Sabbath so I still have but a glimmer of hope since T. Wilson is seeing just a little and I am trying it see if he can turn the tide. It is a huge tide and he needs the majority in the structure to fall in with him and that don't look likely.

I am amazed why the ones in the structure can't see that much is not right that has come in in the last couple years and to accept the new age theology of salvation of the worldly so called Christian structures is beyond belief.

The mystery and the secret is really no mystery to His who have seen and invited Him in as in the following.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

It is time to quit playing Christian and turn in self and be a complete one.

[ClubV12]

I appreciate Ted Wilsons leadership and I appreciate the fellowship and people of God's church. I support them, in every way I can. But I don't look to either source for my personal standard of acceptable lifestyle choices. We have a blue print in the bible as to our individual responsibility. Sister White expounds on that blue print and put's it in words and examples we can more easily comprehend. Her work enlightens our understanding of the bible's blue print.

Properly understood these are not hard sayings or demands of a difficult task master, the principles are a thing of beauty.

[Gibs]

ClubV12, I follow Jesus Christ only and His Word. EGW's writings are my Bible commentary, none better among men. I don't use her writings to others I witness to on other sites that are not SDA. I do here as most are SDA's but we don't really need her writings as it is all in the Bible.

Let's hope and pray Ted can turn it around and you and all who are still in it better get behind him and let him know you want complete and continuing reform.

The mystery and the secret is really no mystery to His who have seen and invited Him in as in the following.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

It is time to quit playing Christian and turn in self and be a complete one.

[Woody]

Am I to assume Gibs then that you in all honesty have not read the book to which you continue to condemn?

If appears that you prefer to make unfounded accusations against the church. For when I gave you the opportunity to explain how you would add or subtract from the 28 Fundamentals - you had no suggestions.

If one is to believe your theories - we need some specifics rather than broad unfounded accusations against the church.

[Gibs]

Woody,

I do not intend to ever read anything Rick Warren wrote as I have no need whatever for that. The leader for the new world religion is common knowledge. I was familiar with his Saddle Back structure when he started it and he is one to stay clear of. What is it that you all want to follow some man and take up his teaching and laud it when you have the Word of God. No to Rick Warren, Joel Olsteen and the whole new age religion bunch. Gods Church will not and cannot be one with them, you may but I choose to steer clear. His True Church does not have fellowship with the world.

Why not use the Bible for the fundamental beliefs and I will join in and uphold them in truth. The explanation # 10 for salvation is not as the Bible has led me to see it. ( I think is was 10 as you had posted it ) EGW also echos the same thing as the Word. "Overcome". It allows the new age theology for salvation which will not lead to salvation.

I'm entitled to my opinion of the SDA structure of today as I am not blind to the errors that are in all faces if they had eyes to see and ears to hear.

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

You don't see what has come in the last few years so how could I convince you of what has come in earlier. The latest is Lectio Divina and that should sound some alarm sirens in the mind, but why not. I know why, you should too.

Sure it's ok, we are all one. But who and what of that is "one in Jesus Christ". If you can't see the present errors that have come in you will never see.

What can Ted W. do about it? Nothing if the majority won't demand reformation on many points. Ted has seen some riding in on some evil enterings of all that makes up this "emerging church" stuff.

I'll come back if it will get reformed but never to again put my name on the books.

I knew and was a part in the SDA church when it was pure and took nothing of the world in. We didn't worry if we pleased the world for we knew well we did not.

The message to the world was come out of her then, not to join in and try to convert it when then the world overtook the church and then it became a structure.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

You attack a book you have never read.

You attack the church's beliefs but refuse to state what you oppose specifically .

You attack but refuse to give examples of what you would change and how you would change it.

No thanks. I sense someone is just grinding an axe.

[Gibs]

I'm grindin an axe alright, to wake up a sleeping church I used to be part of but refuses to wake up.

I've stated what I oppose, you need to go back and re read, the main one is the "new age theology"

What would I change? The entire leadership. The change would be follow Jesus Christ and His Word only.

No thanks to false teachings and new age teachers like the ones mentioned in my prior post and the most out there are of the same cloth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.