Lying in the Bible

[007]

We all "know" that lying is bad. However, here are two stories that seem to me to contradict that "fact". Both of these stories will be known by all, but reading them in the Bible recently has given me a different view of them then the way they are usually told in sermons, sabbath school lessons, bible class texts, etc.

The first story is from Genesis 12:10-20. Here we have Abraham lying to Pharaoh about Sarah, by saying she was his sister in order to cover up for the fact she was also his wife. Usually when this story is talked about Abraham's deception is portrayed as bad and it is at least implied, if not said outright, that God was displeased with Abraham's lie. However, the Biblical record shows that Abraham acquires much wealth in Egypt. It is Pharaoh that is punished and afflicted by God. Even though he did nothing wrong! There is no record of God punishing Abraham - (in fact like I already stated he is rewarded and blessed apparently, and not punished at all) - or of God even scolding him for being dishonest. Not the way we usually tell this story.

The second is found in Genesis 20:1-17. An almost identical thing happens to Abraham, but this time with Abimelech rather than Pharaoh. I know some "scholars" have said that this is in fact not a separate story from the one found in Genesis 12, simply a literary tool of retelling the same event to emphasize the point stronger. Regardless of whether this is true or not, the fact remains that again Abraham is not punished, or even reprimanded by God, and is in fact REWARDED for his lying. To add insult to injury is the way God treats Abimelech. Worse than with Pharaoh, God gives Abimelech a dressing down and tells him he is a dead man for what he has done. Abimelech correctly protests and argues his innocence. God agrees with this, but doesn't give any credit towards Abimelech, but rather takes the credit for preventing Abimelech from sinning to Himself! What?!? Strange. God places no blame on Abraham, but refers to him as a prophet and demands that Abimelech return Abraham's wife immediately so that God does not strike him dead. Salt is poured into Abimelech's wound of "unfair" treatment when he has to pay Abraham with great abundance of various kinds of wealth, and then to top it off Abimelech is only saved when in verse 17 Abraham's prayer to God is what healed Abimelech and his household. Again, not at all the way the story is usually portrayed.

Someone please tell me what I am missing about these stories, as my portrayal of them here does not sit well with my sense of fairness and I would love an alternate explanation. Also, please discuss what this tells us about honesty. There are several more examples in the Bible where it appears that dishonesty is accepted, and even rewarded, by God, but I wanted to start with these two to keep the discussion focused at first.

[doug yowell]

Interesting question. I've always wondered about God's response. I'll go back and reread the story with your portrayal and questions in mind.You've already sparked some first time thoughts about it in my mind. I'll be interested in everyone else's response too.

[phkrause]

I would agree these are very interesting happenings. If we just go by the Bible and Bible only senario, than I would say yes what the heck is going on here. It would be one of those stories in the Bible that we will have to trust God and wait until his return to get some answers. Because there are definitely a few more places that need some clarification, that's for sure. But I believe there is an answer to this and that would be EGW. As has been mentioned by a number of SDA theologians, this is one of the reasons God called her to be a Prophet in our last days on planet earth. So I'm going to look into what she has to say about these passages and get back to you. It might not be tomorrow or even the next day. But if your not interested in what she has to say, just let me know.

[12tribes]

Sarah was Abraham's sister. Abraham did not lie in that but, he did not tell all the truth and that was a lack of faith shown by Abraham.

[miz3]

This sounds interesting.

I'll be interested in the responses to this one.

[Aliensanctuary]

Abraham, I believe, was just trying to save his own skin. His life was in danger, so he thought, from those who would kill him, then ravish his beautiful wife. Abraham was destined for great things: our Bibles wouldn't be the same without him.

[007]

I appreciate all the responses so far, and yes, I certainly would welcome responses that come from Mrs. White. However, no one has yet really answered the question "Is it OK to lie?". My gut reaction is to say "Of course not!", but how can you square that with what happens in these stories? Someone said that Abraham showed a lack of faith. Ok, but so what? God did nothing about his lack of faith except reward and bless him.

[Woody]

I appreciate all the responses so far, and yes, I certainly would welcome responses that come from Mrs. White. However, no one has yet really answered the question "Is it OK to lie?". My gut reaction is to say "Of course not!", but how can you square that with what happens in these stories? Someone said that Abraham showed a lack of faith. Ok, but so what? God did nothing about his lack of faith except reward and bless him.

You make some good points. Many of the Bible Greats whom Jesus stated were the greatest - we murderers in addition to being liars. God takes us where we are at. He loves each of us even while we are in our sins. He covers our sins with His Robe of Righteousness. In God's eyes we are perfect even in our sins.

[Woody]

Remember - Christ died for the ungodly. -Romans 5:6 And most of the unGodly stay that way till Jesus comes to take us unGodly Home to heaven. We will then be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. What God wants is your heart - not so much your actions. Our actions will fail. But hopefully our heart remains good.

[12tribes]

The story in Genesis 12:10-20 does not say that God rewarded Abraham but, that the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house. God kept Pharaoh from sin.Same can be said of the other story

Genesis 20:4-6

(4) But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

(5) Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

(6) And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

[doug yowell]

Remember - Christ died for the ungodly. -Romans 5:6 And most of the unGodly stay that way till Jesus comes to take us unGodly Home to heaven. We will then be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. What God wants is your heart - not so much your actions. Our actions will fail. But hopefully our heart remains good.

but God also notes several times that there will be NO LIARS in heaven.

[monty]

No one seems to have addressed the violation of the 9th commandment by Abraham........"All intentional overstatement, every hint or insinuation calculated to convey an erroneous or exaggerated impression, even the statement of facts in such a manner as to mislead, is falsehood".........Patriarchs&Propheta p. 309. Of course the 10 commandments had not been given on Sinai yet but surely a man whom God had chosen for this all important task would know about it. And not to muddy the waters but what of this taking of woman after woman when you wanted a new adventure that this happening suggests? God did not address this either. Could we be talking about one of those "times of ignorance that God winked at" or is there just a different standard for us today?

[007]

Yes, God loves us where we are at, in spite of us being sinners. However, the question is where in these stories does it point out that Abraham sinned? Abraham's sin is a creation of non-biblical sources. You have ducked the difficult question of what this story tells about whether or not lying is OK, and answered with something that is true, but in my view not applicable to these stories.

[007]

The story in Genesis 12:10-20 does not say that God rewarded Abraham but, that the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house. God kept Pharaoh from sin.Same can be said of the other story

Genesis 20:4-6

(4) But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

(5) Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

(6) And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Well, it may not explicitly state that God rewarded Abraham, but Abraham was definitely rewarded, and God didn't stop that. God never punishes Him. Where is God's retribution for the "sin" of dishonesty committed by Abraham? Or even a reprimand?

[007]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Remember - Christ died for the ungodly. -Romans 5:6 And most of the unGodly stay that way till Jesus comes to take us unGodly Home to heaven. We will then be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. What God wants is your heart - not so much your actions. Our actions will fail. But hopefully our heart remains good.

but God also notes several times that there will be NO LIARS in heaven.

God does point that out several times. The question is how does that square with these stories of Abraham and there seeming implication that his lies were OK?

[007]

No one seems to have addressed the violation of the 9th commandment by Abraham........"All intentional overstatement, every hint or insinuation calculated to convey an erroneous or exaggerated impression, even the statement of facts in such a manner as to mislead, is falsehood".........Patriarchs&Propheta p. 309. Of course the 10 commandments had not been given on Sinai yet but surely a man whom God had chosen for this all important task would know about it. And not to muddy the waters but what of this taking of woman after woman when you wanted a new adventure that this happening suggests? God did not address this either. Could we be talking about one of those "times of ignorance that God winked at" or is there just a different standard for us today?

Excellent points! This is what I'm after. Excellent question about how the multiple women is not addressed. My answer would be controversial, and that is that multiple women are just fine with God as long as the marriage commitment is given to each and every one. I think our preaching and re-preaching about that subject has led us to an unbiblical standard so that we fit out society better. I think the same about honesty. We have just repeated things that we call truths so much and read them in so many Sabbath School lessons that we accept unbiblical theories to be from the bible. Our collective Christian lack of Bible knowledge to me is appalling.

[doug yowell]

God does point that out several times. The question is how does that square with these stories of Abraham and there seeming implication that his lies were OK?

I started a reply on that and then got bushwacked along with my post. I have some possibilities to pass along for consideration. One which coincides with some of what Monty wrote.It takes a little thought for me to put it together right now so maybe in the morning I'll give it a try.

[phkrause]

Yes, God loves us where we are at, in spite of us being sinners. However, the question is where in these stories does it point out that Abraham sinned? Abraham's sin is a creation of non-biblical sources. You have ducked the difficult question of what this story tells about whether or not lying is OK, and answered with something that is true, but in my view not applicable to these stories.

Does it actually have to say that??? We are all sinners, so to me the Bible really doesn't have to say that. What impresses me is that God would want his dirty laundry to be out there for us to read, but it is. So we have to ask ourselves what is the purpose of him allowing that. I'd say its for our benefit. I don't think that he approves of lying, just as he doesn't approve of multiple wife's, but yet he allowed that and still blessed them! Did he not??

[007]

Originally Posted By: 007

Yes, God loves us where we are at, in spite of us being sinners. However, the question is where in these stories does it point out that Abraham sinned? Abraham's sin is a creation of non-biblical sources. You have ducked the difficult question of what this story tells about whether or not lying is OK, and answered with something that is true, but in my view not applicable to these stories.

Does it actually have to say that??? We are all sinners, so to me the Bible really doesn't have to say that. What impresses me is that God would want his dirty laundry to be out there for us to read, but it is. So we have to ask ourselves what is the purpose of him allowing that. I'd say its for our benefit. I don't think that he approves of lying, just as he doesn't approve of multiple wife's, but yet he allowed that and still blessed them! Did he not??

Well, no of course it doesn't have to say the words "Abraham sinned", but in order to believe that you are correct that he did in fact sin it would be necessary to have something in these stories that implies he did. I can't find that. Also, I don't find in the bible the principle of multiple wives being wrong - (certainly not in all circumstances). I think that is also a creation of humans who want to find standards in the bible that aren't there. Sometimes just to fit our societal expectations and fit in. Other times, like this one, because we don't have a good explanation and are embarrassed to say so.

[007]

OK, I think it's time to open the next two stories:

1) Genesis 26:1-32. This should sound familiar as it is Isaac doing the same thing his father Abraham had done. Lying about his wife being his sister. Funny that he does it to Abimelech again. An interesting add on is the specific denunciation in verse 12 that the Lord BLESSED him. This to me makes it clear and takes away the argument that I've seen made with Abraham's stories that God didn't bless him, he just happened to get paid by Pharaoh.

2) Exodus 1:15-21. Facts to note: a) the midwives feared God - (verse 17), the midwives lied - (verse 19), and c) God blessed the midwives and the people the midwives lied to cover up for - (verses 20 and 21). Once again the lesson appears to me that lying is OK.

[007]

OK, I think it's time to open the next two stories:

1) Genesis 26:1-32. This should sound familiar as it is Isaac doing the same thing his father Abraham had done. Lying about his wife being his sister. Funny that he does it to Abimelech again. An interesting add on is the specific denunciation in verse 12 that the Lord BLESSED him. This to me makes it clear and takes away the argument that I've seen made with Abraham's stories that God didn't bless him, he just happened to get paid by Pharaoh.

2) Exodus 1:15-21. Facts to note: a) the midwives feared God - (verse 17), the midwives lied - (verse 19), and c) God blessed the midwives and the people the midwives lied to cover up for - (verses 20 and 21). Once again the lesson appears to me that lying is OK.

When the Nazi soldier comes barging into your home where you're hiding Jews, is it OK to tell him you don't have any?

[cheddar]

When the Nazi soldier comes barging into your home where you're hiding Jews, is it OK to tell him you don't have any?

This is a good question and very similiar to the story of Rahab the harlot.

James said that Rahab was justified by her works (James 2:25) and what were those works? Her good works were lying and deception.

Another example of the two classes of people. Those who follow the letter of the law and those who follow the spirit of the law.

This is why we are not 'under the law' anymore - if we were then Rahab would have been condemned by James not justified.

[007]

Originally Posted By: 007

When the Nazi soldier comes barging into your home where you're hiding Jews, is it OK to tell him you don't have any?

This is a good question and very similiar to the story of Rahab the harlot.

James said that Rahab was justified by her works (James 2:25) and what were those works? Her good works were lying and deception.

Another example of the two classes of people. Those who follow the letter of the law and those who follow the spirit of the law.

This is why we are not 'under the law' anymore - if we were then Rahab would have been condemned by James not justified.

Well said.

[miz3]

OK, I think it's time to open the next two stories:

1) Genesis 26:1-32. This should sound familiar as it is Isaac doing the same thing his father Abraham had done. Lying about his wife being his sister. Funny that he does it to Abimelech again. An interesting add on is the specific denunciation in verse 12 that the Lord BLESSED him. This to me makes it clear and takes away the argument that I've seen made with Abraham's stories that God didn't bless him, he just happened to get paid by Pharaoh.

2) Exodus 1:15-21. Facts to note: a) the midwives feared God - (verse 17), the midwives lied - (verse 19), and c) God blessed the midwives and the people the midwives lied to cover up for - (verses 20 and 21). Once again the lesson appears to me that lying is OK.

Wow, you are making the case 007 so far.