Will miscarried and aborted babies get to heaven?

[monica]

Hi,

If abortion is a sin, it means the aborted baby is already a human being. Does it imply it will go to heaven?

The same question about miscarried babies. Is there any chance their parents will get them back in heaven?

[doug yowell]

Hi,

If abortion is a sin, it means the aborted baby is already a human being. Does it imply it will go to heaven?

The same question about miscarried babies. Is there any chance their parents will get them back in heaven?

1)It is a sin 2)It is a human being. 3)The Bible is not explicit about this question. 4)Can we ask the same question about a born baby who dies before they reach the age of 2? When Matthew (Matt.2:16-18)records the story of Herod killing all the male children (2 and under)he quotes Jer.31:15 as those deaths being a fulfillment of that prophesy. What we never note is the following verses in Jer.31:16,17. What do you think of those in relationship to your question?

[phkrause]

Hi,

If abortion is a sin, it means the aborted baby is already a human being. Does it imply it will go to heaven?

The same question about miscarried babies. Is there any chance their parents will get them back in heaven?

Some interesting questions. Have heard these many times throughout my years of being a SDA. Not sure anyone really has an answer. But here is a quote from the Bible (CJB) Jeremiah 31:15 This is what ADONAI says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamenting and bitter weeping. It is Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted for her children, because they are no longer alive." 16 This is what ADONAI says: "Stop your weeping, and dry your eyes, for your work will be rewarded," says ADONAI. "They will return from the enemy's land; 17 so there is hope for your future," says ADONAI. "Your children will return to their own territory. Not sure if EGW has anymore insight on this. But if aborted babies are considered human than I for believe that they will be in heaven, even if the parent that aborted them is not. The same for miscarriage's. But this is my personal opinion.

[BobRyan]

Hi,

If abortion is a sin, it means the aborted baby is already a human being. Does it imply it will go to heaven?

The same question about miscarried babies. Is there any chance their parents will get them back in heaven?

I agree - they all go to heaven.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

But this is my personal opinion.

I would say that an opinion that agrees with the Word is more than an opinion, but the unbeliever won't be sure until he/she trusts the Word.

God blesses!

[dialoguewithus]

Hi,

I believe the Bible is very clear on this: they will be saved, as long as they are considered by God to be human beings. As for when that moment might be, I wouldn't want to dogmatize on that. I believe that most fertilized eggs do not implant, so we are talking about a potentially huge number.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/506833/1.html

[ClubV12]

No, they won't "automatically" go to heaven, they would not, according to the principle found in the Spirit of Prophecy, "be safe to save".

There are several other groups of people that won't be heaven either as a result of this fundamental principle.

What then will happen to them? We have that answer from the Spirit of Prophecy also. They will not be resurrected, ever. Their life is ended on this planet, in the here and now, for eternity.

The Spirit of Prophecy makes clear these principles in Volume 1 of the Testimonies on the subject of "slaves" and their ultimate destiny.

"Safe to save" means ALL created beings must have had a chance in life to have made a choice, to choose to do what is right vs choosing to do what is wrong. Some slaves were little more than beasts of the field, never having had a chance to consider right or wrong, never having made a choice. Simply doing what they were told to do, from birth to death.

How will God judge this? I won't even hazard a guess, but we do have some principles. How young can a created being be and make a choice? The Spirit of Prophecy says the "character is set" BY age 2. Inherited and cultivated tendencies toward good or evil are largely dependant upon the parents and upbringing in establishing a character basically set for life,,,, or death. Some biblical mothers were given specific instructions on what to do while they were PREGNANT before birth. This demonstrates that character development begins in the womb and can thus be modified BEFORE birth.

It's warm and fuzzy to think the poor children will be saved, but one must consider the larger ramifications to the entire Universe and the risk to eternal happiness for all created beings. In THAT heavenly environment would it not be reasonable to "worry" about a fellow being who has never been "tested"? One who has never actually SEEN the results of sin? Never experienced first hand the conflict of the Great Controversy to any degree? One who never had to make a choice of his/her own free will? One who was born with inherited and cultivated tendencies toward evil from the time of the womb to the time of death, will they be safe to save?

One of the reasons I don't post much here anymore is because principles like this, from the Spirit of Prophecy are generally not well received. That in turn leads to dispute, anger, controversy and denigrating comments concerning the Father, the Son and His messenger, Ellen White. As a result, there is much that is better left unsaid as the people are not able to bear it.

But the question was asked....

Those looking for some "mircale" to perfect their character and get them "ready for heaven" will never find it. Your developing your character today, in all the little things you choose to do, or not do. You will not receive some "miracle" transformation when the time comes unless you are making the necessary preparation, now, today.

[Gerr]

Hi,

If abortion is a sin, it means the aborted baby is already a human being. Does it imply it will go to heaven?

The same question about miscarried babies. Is there chance their parents will get them back in heaven?

I'm not so sure that the premise and the inference are correct.

Is it a sin to abort a pregnancy if the mother's life is in grave danger? If the pregnancy is the result of rape? If the fetus is anencephalic? Do you call a fertilized egg a chicken?

[Pockey]

No, they won't "automatically" go to heaven, they would not, according to the principle found in the Spirit of Prophecy, "be safe to save".

There are several other groups of people that won't be heaven either as a result of this fundamental principle.

What then will happen to them? We have that answer from the Spirit of Prophecy also. They will not be resurrected, ever. Their life is ended on this planet, in the here and now, for eternity.

The Spirit of Prophecy makes clear these principles in Volume 1 of the Testimonies on the subject of "slaves" and their ultimate destiny.

I tried to search for this in Testimonies and couldn't find it. Do you have the chapter or page that it's on?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

No, they won't "automatically" go to heaven, they would not, according to the principle found in the Spirit of Prophecy, "be safe to save".

While for the most part, I've considered your adherence to the Spirit of Prophecy well informed, ClubV12, I don't find this one at all in recognition of the love of a Savior that is unwilling that "....any should perish but that all should come to repentance."2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

Since the child in the womb has not committed any sin, nor does he/she know any thought of sin, if the parents or others claim for the child a couple of Jesus' promises, I'm satisfied that Love that is beyond our understanding, is "...able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think."Ephesians 3:20 NLT

I see no reason why these promises cannot be claimed for both parent and unborn child, according to His Word. If it is reasonable to assume that the actions of the ungodly can prevent one soul to be lost, certainly it would only be fair to assume that the God Who is Righteousness, has promises far exceeding the enemy of souls.

"But Jesus was saying, “ Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” "Luke 23:34 NASB

"Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart."Psalm 37:4 NKJV

Since we do not even know that for which we should pray, it seems no great thing for the God of all creation to return the dead to the living, even from the womb.

"I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother’s womb."Judges 16:17 NASB

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."Romans 8:26 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Those looking for some "mircale" to perfect their character and get them "ready for heaven" will never find it. Your developing your character today, in all the little things you choose to do, or not do. You will not receive some "miracle" transformation when the time comes unless you are making the necessary preparation, now, today.

Another thought that comes to my mind as I contemplate "something I can do" that will add to God's ability to "make me safe to save".

"As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous—

not even one."Romans 3:10 NLT

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."1 John 1:8 NKJV

For those who are "getting ready that they might be prepared and be safe to save", do you think there is a time that the character is fully prepared and without sin, or should they accept that the continuous cleansing by the blood of Jesus and the gift of repentance given to those who ask, which is fully a work of Christ, is adequate to prepare them to receive Jesus at His coming, as they look forward with anticipation to His appearing and their redemption?

"If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]."1 John 1:8-10 AMP brackets, parenthesis their's LHC

"People will be terrified at what they see coming upon the earth, for the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on a cloud with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!"Luke 21:26-30 NLT

God blesses!

[ClubV12]

I know the Spirit of Prophecy is true and completely in harmony with the bible. I know the bible is true and completely in harmony with the Spirit of Prophecy. Therefore, when I come across what appears to be a conflict, a discrepancy, a contradiction I know that is impossible. What then is the problem? My interpretation, my application of scripture or Spirit of Prophecy, for there is no question the two sources are in perfect agreement.

The Spirit of Prophecy in Spiritual Gifts, vol. 1, p. 193, speaks of SOME slaves who will never be resurrected and gives the reasons why. It explains how God in His great mercy is doing the only reasonable thing that can be done in these extreme situations. Some, will die on this earth, and it will be in heaven as if they never existed.

If ALL aborted, miscarried, brain dead babies are "destined" to be saved, regardless of their circumstances, why can't the slaves also be saved? It wasn't their fault they were treated as little more than dumb beasts of the field.

"Those who make no decided effort, but simply wait for the Holy Spirit to compel them to action, will perish in darkness. We would ask those who are waiting for a miracle, What means have been tried which God has placed within your reach? We would ask those who are hoping for some supernatural work to be done, who simply say, "Believe, believe," Have you submitted yourself to the revealed command of God? The Lord has said, "Thou shalt," and, "Thou shalt not."

Evangelism 653

[Nic Samojluk]

Gerry Cabalo wrote:

“Is it a sin to abort a pregnancy if the mother's life is in grave danger?”

Here is my view on this: The duty of physicians is to save as many lives as they can. If a doctor can save only one life instead of two, he is still performing his duty. There was a case in Poland some years ago where the pregnant woman’s doctor predicted that his patient would die if she persisted in carrying the baby to term, and his prediction came true. The woman died, her baby died, and she left several young children orphans.

“If the pregnancy is the result of rape?”

Here the situation is different. Society lets the rapist live. If the rapist does not deserve to die for his crime, then it follows that it would be wrong for society to execute the innocent unborn baby for the sin of his father; killing one of the victims while letting the criminal live makes no moral sense. For the victim of rape we are talking about nine months of inconvenience, while for the unborn we are dealing with the most valued asset of human beings: life. A victim of rape can, with God’s grace, eventually recover from the terrible ordeal, but the aborted baby dos not have the same chance.

“If the fetus is anencephalic?”

My sister’s first baby was born with a spina bifida malformation. The baby lived for two months; she was loved, cared for, and then died. We don’t kill human beings simply because we know that they are going to die soon! There was the case of a male nurse who did this and was responsible for the deaths of many of his patients, and he ended in jail.

[Pockey]

One of the reasons I don't post much here anymore is because principles like this, from the Spirit of Prophecy are generally not well received. That in turn leads to dispute, anger, controversy and denigrating comments concerning the Father, the Son and His messenger, Ellen White. As a result, there is much that is better left unsaid as the people are not able to bear it.

Don't hold back. Life is brief. Any reference to the Bible or SoP is welcome.

[Pockey]

The Spirit of Prophecy in Spiritual Gifts, vol. 1, p. 193, speaks of SOME slaves who will never be resurrected and gives the reasons why. It explains how God in His great mercy is doing the only reasonable thing that can be done in these extreme situations. Some, will die on this earth, and it will be in heaven as if they never existed.

I guess what I'm wondering is, how would this be any different from those that are born on unfallen worlds? Those who are born on unfallen worlds aren't tempted to sin like we are (or are they?)

[ClubV12]

The unfallen worlds also have a tree of knowledge of good and evil, that tree still exists, right now, on those planets. It has not and will not be removed until the fullness of time, the end of the Great Controversy. The planet earth is the only planet to have ever fallen by partaking of that tree. EVERY created intelligence in existence has had an opportunity to make a decision, of his/her own freewill. To follow God, or not. God is no respector of persons, that is "created beings" of any and every kind. All, in heaven, earth and all created planets and intelligent life forms are subject to the law, which is the expressed character and will of God. The unfallen worlds see, as do the angels, the impact of sin played out on this world. A spectacle to the Universe.

"I heard shouts of triumph from the angels and from the redeemed saints which sounded like ten thousand musical instruments, because they were to be no more annoyed and tempted by Satan and because the inhabitants of other worlds were delivered from his presence and his temptations."

Last Day Events, pg 297

Once this Great Controversy is ended, the "tree" removed from all planets in Gods creation, the end of sin, forever, will new beings come into existence afterward? Beings who have never personally witnessed the Great Controversy? I don't think so, but I have no specific referrence to offer in that regard, but I don't think so.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

bible is true and completely in harmony with the Spirit of Prophecy. Therefore, when I come across what appears to be a conflict, a discrepancy, a contradiction I know that is impossible. What then is the problem? My interpretation, my application of scripture or Spirit of Prophecy, for there is no question the two sources are in perfect agreement.

Where the source of information comes from, when there appears to be a contradiction, the Word is true to it's obvious meaning as revealed by the Love and intention behind it. The other source is subject to the plain Word and it's obvious meaning must be understood to meet the obvious intent and meaning of the Word in order to express Truth.

Quote:

I’ve been there. I questioned why the writings of this woman from 100 years ago even fit into our lives today. The reason I can say so definitely that Ellen White has value as a modern-day prophet is that I see her (1) lifting up Jesus, and (2) upholding the Bible as the Word of God and the final authority for Christians. The true testimony is that by reading her books people fall in love with Jesus,

A Call to Stand Apart, Page 104 Chapter 17—Authority Of Scripture A Young Adult’s Encounter with Ellen White ... on the Authority of Scripture

God blesses!

[Rach]

You do not need Ellen Whites writing to prove Daniels prophecy. Daniel proved God's prophecy.

[Rach]

That quote just expresses how crazy Ellen Whites writing really are. Who can belive this mis guided stuff. It makes no sense and is not even bibical.

If it is a cult it is.

[Rach]

The unfallen worlds also have a tree of knowledge of good and evil, that tree still exists, right now, on those planets. It has not and will not be removed until the fullness of time, the end of the Great Controversy. The planet earth is the only planet to have ever fallen by partaking of that tree. EVERY created intelligence in existence has had an opportunity to make a decision, of his/her own freewill. To follow God, or not. God is no respector of persons, that is "created beings" of any and every kind. All, in heaven, earth and all created planets and intelligent life forms are subject to the law, which is the expressed character and will of God. The unfallen worlds see, as do the angels, the impact of sin played out on this world. A spectacle to the Universe.

"I heard shouts of triumph from the angels and from the redeemed saints which sounded like ten thousand musical instruments, because they were to be no more annoyed and tempted by Satan and because the inhabitants of other worlds were delivered from his presence and his temptations."

Last Day Events, pg 297

Once this Great Controversy is ended, the "tree" removed from all planets in Gods creation, the end of sin, forever, will new beings come into existence afterward? Beings who have never personally witnessed the Great Controversy? I don't think so, but I have no specific referrence to offer in that regard, but I don't think so.

This is just a bunch non bibical garbage! The tree was removed from ALL planets? Were in the bible does it say that the tree was ever on different planets. IT nuts and false teaching Wake up people. You are blinded by cult thinking. Why write about it to begin with? when common sense knows that the tree was only in the Garden of Eden, earth! It nut writings.

[ClubV12]

Interpretation of biblical verses, principles, concepts are a tricky thing. Consider the thousands of Christian churches that have resulted from a misapplication of scripture. What is "plain" and "clear" to one is applied in a totally different way by another. How will we know?

It is for this reason the Lord has provided a messenger for these end times. Without that insight we would be no different in our interpretation and understanding of scripture than any other Christian church. Just another group of misguided believers, a part of the great Babylon of churches across the face of the earth.

I am reminded of a time when this world thought the Sun revolved around our planet and we think how stupid those folks were. Are we any different today? To think that we alone, that this is the only planet in the Universe to be created and filled with intelligent beings. That this planet is the only one to have ever been tested. Only recently has man come to understand the vastness of the Universe, we have no idea how many other planets God created and filled with life. The concept that we alone are the only ones to be tested is equivelant to thinking the world is flat.

God is much bigger than we can possibly imagine!

[dialoguewithus]

"A fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and you have a choice: You can save a three-year-old child or a Petri dish containing 10 seven-day old embryos. Which do you choose to rescue?"

Interesting article: http://reason.com/archives/2004/12/22/is-heaven-populated-chiefly-by

[phkrause]

This is just a bunch non bibical garbage! The tree was removed from ALL planets? Were in the bible does it say that the tree was ever on different planets. IT nuts and false teaching Wake up people. You are blinded by cult thinking. Why write about it to begin with? when common sense knows that the tree was only in the Garden of Eden, earth! It nut writings.

First of I disagree that its garbage. Secondly what does EGW gain by saying things like this? She has brought more people to Jesus than the rest of us combined. Of course I don't know that for a fact, but it is an educated guess. Because most people I've run into have said that not for her writings and love for Christ, they wouldn't be in the SDA church. So the question comes down to, do we accept her as a prophet. If we do, than obviously what she has to say has meaning to us, or at least worth the paper its written on. But if we don't than what you have to say makes only sense to you. Now I do agree that there are things she says that can not be found in the Bible per say. But having said that, she adds to things that the Bible has not gone into detail. So I say again if we accept her as a prophet than we have to agree, that the reason she knows these things she's writing about, is because in vision god showed her these things.

[John317]

That quote just expresses how crazy Ellen Whites writing really are. Who can belive this mis guided stuff. It makes no sense and is not even bibical.

If it is a cult it is.

This says more about the writer than it does about Ellen White.

[Nic Samojluk]

dialoguewithus wrote”

"A fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and you have a choice: You can save a three-year-old child or a Petri dish containing 10 seven-day old embryos. Which do you choose to rescue?"

I would save the three-year old child. Does it follow that the Petri dish content has no value. Suppose in that Petri dish there is a future John the Baptist, Saul of Tarsus, or Mother Teresa?

Suppose the choice is between saving the child or a dying comatose patient. Most people would try to save the child first. Does it follow that saving the old dying comatose patient has no moral value?

The article you cited contains the following statement:

“Yet millions of intelligent people of good will maintain that seven-day-old embryos have the exact same moral standing as do readers of this column.”

http://reason.com/archives/2004/12/22/is-heaven-populated-chiefly-by

My question is: Where is the evidence in support of this argument? Most reasonable individual will save the child first, but this does not suggest that all human beings have the same moral value for us. We normally assign a higher moral value to a child than a dying old person, but this does not prove that saving a dying patient has no moral value.

Besides, we have the following moral dilemma: When Herod decided to kill all the boys younger than two yeas in Bethlehem, God intervened to save the life of Infant Jesus, yet the Lord did not perform a miracle to save the lives of those children who were killed in the massacre ordered by the King. Can we use this argument to suggest that those children had no moral value for God?

I conclude from all this that the illustration you chose does not prove what it appeared to prove to a careless observer.