Is Michael Getting Ready to Stand Up?? Daniel Chapter 11 & 12

[wicklunds]

In Daniel Chapter 11 in the final verses it says:

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.

11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I always learned that the man planting his tabernacles of his palace between the seas as the church of Rome. But what about the references to Egypt and Libya and the Ethiopians. And also what about this passage being literal or symbolic? I am mystified and maybe that is a good thing. But I am eager to learn. Obviously since Rome has been on the ascension as of late it would seem timely, but we must proceed with caution here.

[Guest]

Dennis this is a loaded question that I just love to answer FROM INSPIRATION! Man studies will fail you every time. To be very brief almost all of Daniel eleven has been fulfilled only a few verse remain in the FUTURE. But when ROME comes to her end and no one to help her, she will be in a "temp dewelling" [see bible concordance] in Jerusalem!!! But listen carefully when she comes to her end is at the beginning of the 7th plague. Michael has already stood up 30 days BEFORE just as soon as the 144,000 are sealed. Many chapters of the bible are like that. One chapter takes you clear to THE END, then the next chapter [Daniel 12] picks up the pieces and gives ADDED detail as to what brought on the "time of trouble" or whatever. I could go on forever with documentation, but most people are content with knowing a preacher that will tell them when the time is right...

[wicklunds]

Well,having spoken with many preachers and after hearing many evangelists interpret this passage differently, I can tell you I am not content with my understanding of all this. One thing is clear, and that is that the papacy is waiting like a cat ready to pounce on a world that thinks it is not being stalked as prey. Apostate Protestantism will give her all the fresh kill she could ever want.

[bevin]

Christians have been interpreting Daniel as proving the time of the end is here since AD70.

Every school of interpretation has said "the previous ones got it wrong, but we got it right this time".

Every generation of SDA has said "ohhh look at this event, it proves the Lord is almost here".

At some point we should simply admit "we don't know whether this is the last round or not, and won't know, until one day when He actually comes".

There is no profit in acting on the belief that THIS is the last round. Instead remember that for YOU every day may be your last, but also you might have to live here until you get to be 108.

Wicklunds - what will you DO differently based on your understanding of this section of scripture?

/Bevin

[wicklunds]

It is a nice assault on a person's faith to undermine their hope in the prophetic interpretation of Daniel and Revelation and then imply that a right understanding will or will not have a certain "affect" on what we might do differently. Why would you want to hedge up a person's way who wanted to rightly interpret these books? Bevin thanks for your post but if you cannot be constructive in here, please find somewhere else to inject your discouraging sentiments.

[wicklunds]

Is there some literature on this interpretation or is this your private one?

[wicklunds]

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Christians have been interpreting Daniel as proving the time of the end is here since AD70.

Every school of interpretation has said "the previous ones got it wrong, but we got it right this time".

Every generation of SDA has said "ohhh look at this event, it proves the Lord is almost here".

At some point we should simply admit "we don't know whether this is the last round or not, and won't know, until one day when He actually comes".

There is no profit in acting on the belief that THIS is the last round. Instead remember that for YOU every day may be your last, but also you might have to live here until you get to be 108.

Wicklunds - what will you DO differently based on your understanding of this section of scripture?

/Bevin

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Bevin,

your post reminds me of this Bible verse:

2Pe 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

2Pe 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

2Pe 3:6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2Pe 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

[bevin]

Wicklunds, your response to my post contains NO FACTS.

You don't like the message, so you shoot the messenger.

Every fact I stated in my post was correct.

And you did not reply to the very important question - how will this issue affect your life?

I am now 48. When I was 12 the SDA preachers were so convinced and convincing that the Lord was about to come that I seriously wondered whether I would ever be an adult. Now I have adult daughters of my own.

I am glad I did not let those preachers affect my choice of path through life.

/Bevin

[Guest]

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Is there some literature on this interpretation or is this your private one?

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Just the bible which is the KJV alone and the SOP. Soffers don't like either as you will find out on this forum.

[DaveM1936]

Starting with Daniel 11:36, Daniel reveals what would happen in France during the years of the French Revolution. Indeed, they did away with the God the French had worshipped for centuries. Instead for a period of 3 1/2 years, atheism was the legal religion of France.

Starting with verse 40, future events are being described. Since they are in the future, I have wondered about them. The phrase, "the time of the end", applies to events ocurring after 1798. It was then that two things ocurred. First, the end of the papacy's 1260 years rule. Second, the end of the reign of Atheism in France. "The time of the end" can also apply to the events immediately preceeding the coming of Jesus.

Dan 11 is a literal chapter. Unlike the other prophetic chapters of Daniel which have symbolic language, chapter 11 has no such language. So when you read verse 40-45, you can take them literally. Egypt means Egypt. Amon, Moab means the present countries occupying the territory of these ancient nations. Jordan is one of them. IMO, a war in the middle east is pictured. No date for this can be assigned.

The king of the south throughout chapter 11 was Egypt. The king of the north was Syria. While various nations controlled these countries over the centuries, literal Egypt and Syria are meant. Cleopatra, queen of Egypt was a Greek and decended from the Greek rulers of Egypt. In modern times, it would refer to these nations, no matter who was controlling them at the time.

The glorious holy mountain refers to the temple site. The two seas are the Mediterean and the Dead Sea. The "he" refers to another power other than Egypt or Syria. Prior to verse 40, it was atheistic France. Today, atheism, although appearing to be dead, is alive and well. It reappeared in Russia in 1917. This will be an international war. I have long been expecting such a war to take place in the Middle East.

Please ask questions. This is only a brief summary.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

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Is there some literature on this interpretation or is this your private one?

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Dennis I will send you a CD sermon on Daniel 11 & 12 given by a friend of mine that has a large [standing room only]prison ministry, he allows the bible to be it's own exositor. You don't see must of that anymore as these confused teachers on end time events have started marching on the wrong foot.

[Restin]

Wicklunds, I was thinking today how God himself didn't have the "heart" to tell our predecessors that they had no hope of seeing the second coming of Christ for themselves. Every generation has believed they might be the one, and I feel God has allowed that. I agree it would smash my hopes to be told it isn't going to happen in my lifetime. It's true there have been many interpretations, and I've studied many too, even the Baptist and New Age one's, Hal Lindsey, and the Left Behind story, and Zionist views. But common sense, reading the Bible for yourself, having faith in Spirit of Prophecy is a better guid than just anybody who shows up with a personal idea. If we don't have E.G.White what do we have? Nothing...that's what. There isn't time for a whole new prophetic system. EGW says plainly that "Daniel and The Revelation" is a guide inspired by God. I would rather go with that than follow every voice that comes up to tear it apart. Daniel and the Revelation takes you up to the end of Napoleon and speculation about Turkey, then is current with it's time in the 1800's. I would strongly suggest, Wichlund, that you go to this website, "Biblical Adventist Truths" by Ulicia Unruh, an Adventist teacher and historian. I find it most clear, Biblical, and intelligent. It's at: http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/Home.html

[wicklunds]

Thanks Restin.

Dennis

[Guest]

Restin said these words."There isn't time for a whole new prophetic system. EGW says plainly that "Daniel and The Revelation" is a guide inspired by God. I would rather go with that than follow every voice that comes up to tear it apart. Daniel and the Revelation takes you up to the end of Napoleon and speculation about Turkey, then is current with it's time in the 1800's. I would strongly suggest, Wichlund, that you go to this website, "Biblical Adventist Truths" by Ulicia Unruh, an Adventist teacher and historian. I find it most clear..."

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Which version of "Thoughts on Daniel & Revelation" by Uriah Smith do you and Ulicia teach from? The brethern have altered this book scores of times, also a few time AFTER U. Smith death. Why did they change this book if it was so factual? They changed it because it proved to be non factual! Even today what you & Ulicia claim as bibical truth is error the world was teaching from years Berore Adventism ever came to the surface. If she is a HISTORIAN, as you claim, then she should be about the correct teaching of His-story, from the book author by Him.

Are you aware that in the 50s, SDA graduate seminary student were turned loose on Adventist churches teaching from U.Smith's book, or they had an option, teach another thought that was contrary to Smiths book??? This spell disaster!!!

[Restin]

I didn't say that Uriah Smith's version was perfect. I don't believe any earthly work is perfect, and that God allows that to be so. EGW wasn't perfect, nor were all her writings. We're supposed to use the brains God gave us and sort truth from error, and go with what seems most true.

I'm saying that many SDA, and myself, believe that Uriah Smith and EGW are/were on the right track with God. I certainly would follow them rather than yourself who seem, after several years of being on this forum, only able to trash and burn everything that comes up on the forum about EGW and SDA beliefs.

I'm also not going to be lured into one of your endless, nitpicking debates that only eviscerates and scatters, while not really helping anybody with anything..

[Guest]

Restin "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

Thanks for reading from my posts, everyone need a measure of truth.

[Restin]

I didn't know this has to be in the heat of a kitchen.

[Guest]

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I didn't know this has to be in the heat of a kitchen.

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Are these your thoughts or did you have the "historian" to coach you?

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Again, In 9T instruction is given that Daniel 11 verses have just about been fulfilled. When the papal power comes her "end and none shall help" her [verse 45] is at the beginning of the 7th plague. This is after this army of 200,000,000 [Revelation 9:16] makes their move to destroy the only living saint, the 144,000. This is the time of the battle of Armageddon [Jacob's trouble for the saints.] The battle of Armegeddon is not fought over in the "holy land", it will be fought where ever the 144,000 are scattered, But not one shot will be fired in this battle.