Today

[Hansen]

Ac 13:33 that god has fulfilled this promise to our children in that he raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY <4594> I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’

Heb 5:5 so also Christ did not glorify himself so as to become a high priest, but he who said to him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY <4594> I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU";

The term “today” is explained as the time period which began when Jesus was resurrected. That’s the Sabbath rest which is brought to view in the previous chapters of Hebrews.

The original rest referred to the Promised Land. There is, however, another rest, the rest of today. That rest is called a Sabbath (Hebrews 4:7-9).

"Today" is explained in Hebrews 5:5 and Acts 13:33 to refer to the resurrection of Christ and his coronation as high priest.

The Sabbath rest of Hebrews refers to the time period which started when Christ was resurrected/coronated.

[Gerr]

dgrimm, didn't you notice the direction of the thinking process? That because Jesus inaugurated a Sabbath rest at His resurrection, it is no longer necessary to keep the Sabbath rest of the 4th commandment?

[Gail]

I agree with the point about Jesus entering his role as High Priest (although Hanson might not once he realises what the High Priest's work really is).

But for the rest of it, no.

[Hansen]

Heb 4:7 he again fixes a certain day, "today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

8 for if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken of another day after that.

9 so there remains a sabbath rest for the people of god.

Previously, the rest referred to the Promised Land of the Middle East. Even though the Jews were keeping the Sabbath during the wilderness wanderings, Hebrews says they had not entered into Rest to which the author now refers. He refers to that Rest as a Sabbath; however, it is not the weekily Sabbath he has in mind.

This passage is a long one and should be studied in its entirety. It is made up of verses beginning with chapter 3 and includes chapters 3, 4, and 5. The today spoken of in chapters 3 and 4 is not explained until chapter 5:5:

"so also Christ did not glorify himself so as to become a high priest, but he who said to him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY <4594> I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU";"

7 therefore, just as the holy spirit says, "TODAY <4594> IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED me BY TESTING me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’"

12 take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living god.

13 but encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "today <4594>," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

14 for we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

It can be seen that the "today" spoken of in Hebrews 3:7-14 is not explained until chapter 5:5:

"so also Christ did not glorify himself so as to become a high priest, but he who said to him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY <4594> I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU";"

[Gerr]

Ac 13:33 that god has fulfilled this promise to our children in that he raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY <4594> I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’

Heb 5:5 so also Christ did not glorify himself so as to become a high priest, but he who said to him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY <4594> I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU";

The term “today” is explained as the time period which began when Jesus was resurrected. That’s the Sabbath rest which is brought to view in the previous chapters of Hebrews.

Sorry, but I don't see a connection between the "Today" [Christ's inauguration as priest] in Heb 5:5 with the "Today" [entering God's rest] in Heb 3 & 4. The former was a a one-time event, whereas the latter is an on-going today."As long as it is called 'today', anyone who has not yet entered God's rest may enter, Heb 3:13.

Quote:

The Sabbath rest of Hebrews refers to the time period which started when Christ was resurrected/coronated.

That doesn't sound right. The Sabbath rest in Hebrews has been available to all since God rested from His creative activity during creation week. The text: ESV | &#8206;Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice, &#8206;8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, &#8206;9 where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. &#8206;10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.’ &#8206;11 As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’ ” was quoted from Ps 95:7-11.

1) So when the psalmist was telling the people, "Today, if you hear his voice....." he was offering them to enter God's rest. That was long before Jesus came or His resurrection.

2) Some DID enter the rest of God expounded in Heb. Heb 3 & 4 clearly points out that those who perished in the desert did not only fail to enter the rest in the Promised Land but more importantly, failed to enter God's rest because of unbelief & disobedience. In 4:3, the writer clearly says that those who "have believed enter that rest." Caleb & Joshua certainly believed. And so did the second generation that left Egypt. And I have no doubt that Moses entered God's rest even though he was not permitted to ender the physical rest of the Promised Land.

[Hansen]

“1) So when the psalmist was telling the people, "Today, if you hear his voice....." he was offering them to enter God's rest. That was long before Jesus came or His resurrection.“

Yes, Gerry, that’s correct; however; as the verse below indicates, there is a promise remaining:

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering his rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it

Note that Hebrews is addressing people in the present, reinterpreting the passages from the OT to suit the current situation:

3 for we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

We who have believed may now enter the rest.

7 he again fixes a certain day, "today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

8 for if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken of another day after that.

9 so there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of god.

The Sabbath rest to which Hebrews refers was not the rest attained by entry into the literal Promised Land. By not hardening our hearts, we enter the rest of Christ's priestly ministry.

The word “today” is used 7 times in Hebrews. Most of those appearances refer to the “today” which is ultimately defined by chapter 5, verse 5, as the time of Christ’s glorification as high priest.

[Gerr]

The "today" rest promised in Psalms cannot be the rest in the Promised Land because they were ALREADY in it. So the psalmist must have understood it to mean the way the writer of Hebrews interpreted it.

By what method of hermeneutics should the "today" of Hebrews 5 define the "today" of Heb 3 & 4? The "today" of Heb 3 & 4 which PRECEDES chap 5 clearly says that those who believe enter that rest. Anyone from Abel on down through history could enter that rest simply by putting their trust in God. The "today" of Heb 5 refers to a one-time event, whereas the "today" of chap 3 & 4 occur daily - an on-going "today."

[Hansen]

Gerry, As a general rule, I familiarize myself with a passage before I disagree with someone who holds a differnt view of it than I do. I read it to get a general idea, then go through it very carefully for the details. I look at the surrounding passages.

For now, it might be better to forget about "hermeneutics." Literary analysis, which is what hermeneutics is, requires basic reading comprehension. It also requires that one be willing to go where the text leads instead of setting parameters and refusing to go beyoind them, even if the text requires it.

Psalms is reviewing a historical event, the exclusion of a generation from the promised Land because of their unbelief. The passage in Hebrews plainly states that the Promised Land is the rest originally referred to by the Psalmist:

Heb 3:15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."

16 for who provoked him when they had heard? indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 and with whom was he angry for forty years? was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?18 and to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

Heb 3:7 therefore, just as the holy spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS

[12tribes]

“1) So when the psalmist was telling the people, "Today, if you hear his voice....." he was offering them to enter God's rest. That was long before Jesus came or His resurrection.“

Yes, Gerry, that’s correct; however; as the verse below indicates, there is a promise remaining:

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering his rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it

Note that Hebrews is addressing people in the present, reinterpreting the passages from the OT to suit the current situation:

3 for we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

We who have believed may now enter the rest.

7 he again fixes a certain day, "today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

8 for if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken of another day after that.

9 so there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of god.

The Sabbath rest to which Hebrews refers was not the rest attained by entry into the literal Promised Land. By not hardening our hearts, we enter the rest of Christ's priestly ministry.

The word “today” is used 7 times in Hebrews. Most of those appearances refer to the “today” which is ultimately defined by chapter 5, verse 5, as the time of Christ’s glorification as high priest.

If Jesus is our sabbath it will be shown by keeping His sabbath

[Gerr]

“1) So when the psalmist was telling the people, "Today, if you hear his voice....." he was offering them to enter God's rest. That was long before Jesus came or His resurrection.“

Yes, Gerry, that’s correct; however; as the verse below indicates, there is a promise remaining:

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering his rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it

For those who "seem to have come short of it," yes, there remains a rest for them to enter. And they can enter it, "today, if [they] hear his voice."

Quote:

The Sabbath rest to which Hebrews refers was not the rest attained by entry into the literal Promised Land. By not hardening our hearts, we enter the rest of Christ's priestly ministry.

But 4:2-3 clearly says that when one puts their trust in God, they enter that rest. That rest typified by God's rest on the 7th day of creation, has been available to all from the beginning, NOT at the beginning of Christ's priestly ministry.

Quote:

The word “today” is used 7 times in Hebrews. Most of those appearances refer to the “today” which is ultimately defined by chapter 5, verse 5, as the time of Christ’s glorification as high priest.

Again, I don't see how you can say that the "today" in Heb 5:5 [a one time event], is the same as the "today" in Heb 3 & 4, which has to do with an on-going opportunity to accept/enter God's rest. The only commonality is that they are both called, "today".

[Gerr]

Gerry, As a general rule, I familiarize myself with a passage before I disagree with someone who holds a differnt view of it than I do. I read it to get a general idea, then go through it very carefully for the details. I look at the surrounding passages.

That I have done, my friend, because some have come up with the idea that entering God's rest somehow nullifies resting on the Sabbath of the 4th commandment. The Sabbath rest of the 4th commandment is symbolic of God's rest expounded in Heb. How so? When you enter God's rest, you cease from your own works. Works of what? The works of unbelief & disobedience! Unbelief & disobedience is what kept/keeps people from entering His rest. The Sabbath rest of the decalogue is symbolic of ceasing from one's works of unbelief & disobedience. A symbol that GOD ALONE can make a sinner holy.

ESV | &#8206;Ex 31:12 And the LORD said to Moses, &#8206;13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you. &#8206;14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. &#8206;15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. &#8206;16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. &#8206;17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’ ”

ESV | &#8206;Eze 20:19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to obey my rules, &#8206;20 and keep my Sabbaths holy that they may be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.

Entering God's rest is ceasing from works of unbelief & disobedience to His commandments, NOT so that they can break or disregard one of those commandments.

[Hansen]

Gerry,

Hebrews 3 begins by calling our attention to Jesus as high priest:

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;

The discussion which follows has little to do with Jesus being our high priest. Rather, it is a discussion about finding rest. It warns of the dangers of unbelief. The narrative rehearses some history of Israel. Then it says:

Heb 4:14 Having then a great high priest, who hath passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

It is as if he has been talking about the priesthood of Christ all the time, yet that is not the case.

Chapter 5 launches into a detailed discussion about Christ’s priestly ministry. As part of that discourse, Hebrews says:

Heb 5:5 so also Christ did not glorify himself so as to become a high priest, but he who said to him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU";

The word “today” is the same word used in the previous discussion. This explains what the previous narrative has to do with Christ being high priest. We can also fail to enter the "today" of Christ’s priestly ministry, just as the Jews of old failed to enter the Promised Land.

[Gerr]

So what does entering Christ's priestly ministry mean to you?

[Hansen]

Hi Gerry, There are many dimensions to resting in Christ. Among them is the certainty that I will never face my sins again, as the Jews did each year on the Day of Atonement [see Hebrews 10]. This may be the biggest benefit of entering into the priestly work of Christ.

[Gerr]

Hi Gerry, There are many dimensions to resting in Christ. Among them is the certainty that I will never face my sins again, as the Jews did each year on the Day of Atonement [see Hebrews 10]. This may be the biggest benefit of entering into the priestly work of Christ.

Does it also include disregarding the rest of the 4th commandment?

[Hansen]

Gerry,

How long have you been the Sabbath sheriff? Are you self-appointed or the designee of another? Do you find the work rewarding or do you do it because you feel it has to be done?

Looking forward to your well crafted response.

[Gerr]

Does asking a question make me a sheriff? God calls the Sabbath, "my holy day," so He will/can protect His own. I'm still waiting for your answer to the question.

[Hansen]

Hi Gerry, This thread is about the Sabbath of Hebrews 4. The Sabbath of Hebrews 4 is not the weekly 7th day Sabbath. If you want to talk about the weekly Sabbath, I'm not especially interested in that subject right now. Being the Sabbath sheriff, you must be familiar with the unfortunate history of many weekly Sabbath-keeping churches in Europe.

Nearly all, excepting the Seventh day baptists, were destroyed. Some of these groups were assimilated into Judaism because they valued the Sabbath more than Jesus. If I remember correctly, the remnants of these groups were destroyed by the Nazis. These histories are readily available in works by Mennonite scholars, recommended by Dr. Sam of the Pontifical Gregorian Institute.

Being human, we all have our priorities. Although ours are different, I wish you well.

[doug yowell]

Hi Gerry, This thread is about the Sabbath of Hebrews 4. The Sabbath of Hebrews 4 is not the weekly 7th day Sabbath. If you want to talk about the weekly Sabbath, I'm not especially interested in that subject right now. Being the Sabbath sheriff, you must be familiar with the unfortunate history of many weekly Sabbath-keeping churches in Europe.

Being human, we all have our priorities. Although ours are different, I wish you well.

"...but I did not shoot the deputy."

[Gerr]

And what does the annihilation of the weekly Sabbath keepers in Europe have to do with my question? The devil hates the Sabbath because it's a weekly reminder of the Creator. A weekly rebuke that man is not a product of evolution, and that He alone can make man holy.

All I'm asking is: Does entering the rest in Heb 4 negate resting in the rest of the 4th commandment?

[Hansen]

Friends, I'm posting from the mountains of Northern Laos. Just returned from a bicycle trip to the Chinese border. I've had some wonderful experiences visiting with hill tribes. Hopefully, I've identified some individuals who can become powerful gospel witnesses by testifying of the death and resurrection of Christ. Pray that God will touch their hearts.

Normally, communication with these folks is difficult; however, providentially, I met some people with whom I can communicate in Mandarin and English. Please pray that God will bless his word, both spoken and written. As I rehearsed the Creation account with one young man who had never heard of Jesus or the Bible, I sensed that God was touching his heart. These dear souls live very close to nature. Hopefully, they will respond to the message of a Creator who spilled his blood for their redemption.

"I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse. He who sat upon him was called faithful and true..."

[Gerr]

May God bless your work in spreading the Gospel. BTW, how do you have access to the Internet in the mountains of Laos?

[Hansen]

SD, I reviewed the passage in light of your remarks about Joshua/Jesus. The context indicates that the writer is referring to the historical Joshua:

"7 he again fixes a certain day, "today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

8 for if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken of another day after that.

9 so there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of god."

As the passage indicates, From the point of time referred to in Psalms, Hebrews is saying that if the historic Joshua had given them rest, "rest" wouldn't have again been spoken about in David's time.

Gerry,

There is a small town here which provides internet access.

[ClubV12]

Look to me like the question is the same one we hear a lot:

Were the ten commandments done away with when Christ was crucified,,,, or not.

I say they were not, they are a demonstration of Gods character written in words and language we can understand. He changes not, He is today as He was when He created the earth,,, and rested on the seventh day. The fourth commandment, yea, NONE of the commandments should be a burden. They are an expression of His character, His love. We should keep them in the spirit in which they were given, a spirit of love. As David lived them, he said, "Oh how I love thy law." Now THATS the Spirit!

[cheddar]

Were the ten commandments done away with when Christ was crucified,,,, or not.