The end

[BibleOnly]

OK, so I had said once before I was going to leave, and I stayed for the 1844 thread. In that thread, there was a lot of to and froing, but no real answers to my core questions ( where does the BIBLE say the things the SDA claims about 1844 ? ). Yesterday I read an article on the SDA site, which took a good amount of time. I posted three specific questions in response to three statements on that article. I also must have made a comment about Ellen White. I was flooded with comments regarding the sanctity of Ellen White. Not one person answered my questions about 1844. Yes, there was a lot of discussion, and I have some idea of what you believe, but not one person can show where the Bible says what is claimed, nor does the SDA article. It's clear this belief is founded on a false faith in Ellen White and in conjecture to cover up a failed prophecy. Today, that article is locked.

At the same time, Woody wrote to me over and over to tell me that it's wrong to tell unsaved people what the Gospel is, if they believe in some religion that they tie to the name of Jesus. He seemed worried for my salvation because I 'concern myself with others'.

Then I got a moderators message asking me to refrain from speaking about the gift of tongues too much, when the truth is that when I've tried to shut that down as off topic in some threads, it's others who pursue it. One person kept arguing with me on the board while I said in post after post that they needed to PM me if they wanted to discuss it.

So, I guess that means that on the one hand, people here are interested to talk about what I've got to say, I assume because they feel upset by it, and on the other, the Gospel is only welcome here in tiny amounts. I would expect that, and that's fine. I just wanted to be fair in giving you guys a chance to defend the 1844 doctrine. I've got a lot of defence, but none from the Bible, so I guess I will now leave you guys to your own devices and wish you all the best. I am not fishing for requests to 'come back', I really decided to leave, then stayed for the 1844 discussion, and now that is over. Apart from anything else, I strongly dislike getting up to find people asked me questions and then the topic is locked. If anyone wants to ask me anything, I'll keep reading private messages, but I'm not going to read the forums ( this thread included ). I am too easily drawn in by patently false statements from the Bible, and having said I am stopping posting, I wish to make sure that my actions show integrity and don't bring my motivations in to question.

[Gibs]

BibleOnly,

I will just paste the most pertinent verses of the prophecy that is used and let you do your take on it.

Da 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Da 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Da 8:15 ¶ And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Da 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Da 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Da 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

It is long detailed study to show the truth of the prophecy which I am not going to get into as I am very slow at typing out things and unless I find an essay of it I can copy and paste will leave it to some more agile fingers and I do believe there is a few here that could explain it properly if they happen to care to. But most don't want to get into any contention so don't be surprised if one don't come forward.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Here is 1844 again, in capsule form. 1844 is based on SDA &understanding of the prophecy in Dan 8 & 9. In Dan 8, the prophet saw in vision a ram, a he goat with a one prominent horn that broke off and was replaced by 4 smaller horns. Then a little horn appears from one of the 4 winds (4 directions of the compass), which becomes "exceedingly great." This is not the same as the little horn of Dan 7. Historicist Protestants have identified the ram with Medo-Persia, the goat with Hellenistic Greece, & the little horn that became "exceedingly great" with Rome. Babylon was no longer in the picture as it was in Dan 2 & Dan 7 because it had already passed from the scene. The prominent horn of the he-goat has been understood to be Alexander the Great. When he died, his empire was divided among his 4 generals, represented by the 4 smaller horns that replaced the one big horn. Their power eventually gave way to Rome, represented by the little horn. Here's the activity of this little horn as seen by Daniel:

ESV | ‎Da 8:9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land. ‎10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them. ‎11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown. ‎12 And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper. ‎13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” ‎14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

Gabriel then proceeded to explain the vision.

ESV | ‎Da 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia. ‎21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king. ‎22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power. ‎23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. ‎24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. ‎25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand. ‎26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king’s business, but I was appalled by the vision and did not understand it. ESV Dan 8:27.

What was it that Daniel did not understand after Gabriel's explanation? As you can see, he explained the ram, the goat, and the little horn, but said nothing about the 2300 days. Afterwards Daniel fasted & prayed. Then Gabriel comes back to:

ESV | ‎Da 9:22 He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, “O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. ‎23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision. ‎24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. ‎25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. ‎26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. ‎27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

The 2300 days were to start when the decree was given to rebuild Jerusalem. This has been established to be 457 B.C. There is also the 70 weeks that was to be cut off from the 2300 days. The 70 in turn was divided into 69 and 1 week. In the middle of the 1 week, the Messiah was to be cut off. 2300 prophetic days (years) added to 457 B.C. takes us to the year 1844.

What happened in 1844? Dan 8:14 says, the sanctuary shall be cleansed. What is the cleansing of the sanctuary? This is where Lev 16 comes in. In the Levitical sanctuary services, there was a daily sacrifice where sinners could come and confess their sins at the entrance of the tabernacle courtyard & offered their animal sacrifice. The blood was sprinkled over the horns of the altar, and then some of the blood was also taken into the first apartment of the tabernacle. Then once a year, the Day of Atonement service was performed. This is the service where two goats - one for the Lord and one for Azazel was performed. The Lord's goat was killed which atoned for the sins of the people and whose blood was taken into the Most Holy place (second apartment). This blood was also used to cleanse the sanctuary of sins that IN TYPE were transferred from the sinner into the sanctuary during the daily services.

The goat of azazel was taken by an able-bodied person into the wilderness. Adventists believe the goat of azazel represents Satan.

Orthodox Jews view Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) as a day of Judgment. It is a time of prayer & reflection of what had gone on during the past year. SDAs believe that when Jesus ascended into heaven, He began the first phase [Holy Place) of His High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, and in 1844 began the second phase of His ministry in the Most Holy place. We believe this phase is what is seen in the judgment scene in Dan 7. This is the investigative phase of the judgment. It is when Jesus finishes His ministry in the Most Holy place that He returns to this earth that the first part of the executive part of the judgment is done, i.e. giving the righteous their reward. The saints are taken to heaven where they will spend the 1000 yrs (millenium). All the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming. The earth is left desolate. After the millenium, the saints return to this earth with Jesus and the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. All the wicked are resurrected and the Great White throne judgment takes place and the wicked including Satan & his angels received the punishment of eternal death.

As you can see, this has been a lengthy explanation although this is just a summary. I urge you to study it. Lysimachus (Mark) even posted a diagram & the events that took place at each important juncture of the 2300 days in the 1844 thread. If you are really serious about knowing this prophecy, we will be happy to send you a book. This subject is not milk; it is hard meat even to longtime believers.

[BobRyan]

Gerry -

thank you for sharing that.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

It's clear this belief is founded on a false faith in Ellen White

Not even close.

The doctrine is based on paying attention to the details found in Daniel 7 and 8.

in Christ,

Bob

[Q.E.D.]

I'm not going to read the forums ( this thread included ). I am too easily drawn in by patently false statements from the Bible, and having said I am stopping posting, I wish to make sure that my actions show integrity and don't bring my motivations in to question.

"Say it ain't so, Joe, say it ain't so"

You'll be back. . .

[Kevin H]

I'm sorry Bible Only, but I have not seen the 3 questions you asked AFTER reading an article.

What I had seen in you is someone who does not understand our view, but underneath the picture of wanting to know, you seem to have your own ideas on the topic. Ideas that I'm sure float around Adventism, but which I do not see in the doctrine and wanting to know of something specifically that happened on that specific day, not willing that on the one hand it was one of the times that the work could have been finidhed and the Lord could have come, but that it also pointed us to the age of exegesis and plays a role in the Great Controversy. You seem to want to persist in your misunderstandings and have us address the doctrine in a way to demand us to defend your picture of the doctrine. I am pleased that you actually read an article (athough I'd love for you to read those 3 chapters in Sanctuary and the Atonement, although I know that they are hard to find and a bit of deep reading. I challenge any critic to try to tear down those arguments. But still I'm pleased that you read something. Please share with me those 3 questions again.

I hope you don't leave here, there are so many other topics that I'm sure you would find useful (and see how they are related to the Investigative Judgment) such as the truth about Hell Fire and the issues of the Great Controversy, archaeological, historical and linguistic discoveries, and other ideas that may trigger your own insights that you would not find on many other discussion locations.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

It's clear this belief is founded on a false faith in Ellen White

Not even close.

The doctrine is based on paying attention to the details found in Daniel 7 and 8.

in Christ,

Bob

It's so true, this "belief" that BibleOnly is stating was PRESENTED to Ellen White by several pioneers, and for days she was confused and did not understand. She was just a young girl of 17. Then she had a vision that not only confirmed what had been shared with her, but clarified many details!

Were these some 75 expositors off their rocker that the 2300 terminus was coming up in the 1840s (1843/1844/1847--depending on their data)?

Many of them believed that there was going to be a return to apostolic times with a revival and reformation beginning at the terminus of the 2300 days.

The cleansing of the sanctuary, or "restoration" has to do with God's people making things right with God! It has to do with purifying our sins, our characters!

When God's people put away sin, the sanctuary in heaven is being "made right" (tsadaq - cleansed).

It's not too difficult to figure out! None of these men even knew who Ellen White was!

Ellen White's visions CRYSTALIZED and SHARPENED our Adventist understandings of the Investigative Judgment. But men like Hiram Edson, O.R. L. Crosier, Hahn, etc. etc. had already come to these conclusions based on the Bible and the Bible only.

What is it going to take to get this point across?

[BobRyan]

How true Marcos -

the actual facts of history seem to be of little value to those opposed to it.

Yet the Daniel 7 and 8 foundation for the Investigative Judgment doctrine - remains.

in Christ,

Bob